Martin (01:45)
Yorgos, thank
Yiorgos (01:49)
Hello.
Martin (01:49)
you for joining me on the podcast today.
Yiorgos (01:52)
Thank you for having me. Nice to see you, Martin
Martin (01:54)
This has been a long time coming. We've been talking about doing something for eons.
Yiorgos (02:00)
Is this your way of telling me that I've been avoiding you?
Martin (02:03)
No, no, I mean, it's this is my way of acknowledging that. Like it takes a lot to get something done sometimes on my end. So I would say no, I'm taking responsibility on this one.
Yiorgos (02:16)
You
Martin (02:18)
No, glad to where where should we start? Where should we dive in? First and foremost, before we dive into like your backstory and
All that fun stuff. Let's let's do some some quick icebreakers. You are.
left with only one musical artist or album for the rest of time for whatever reason needs the only one you can listen to or play what album or artist do you choose?
Yiorgos (02:58)
It's Florence and the Machine. Yeah,
Martin (03:00)
Okay.
Yiorgos (03:02)
done and done.
Martin (03:04)
You see
that like it's obvious. Like it's like, there's only one choice.
Yiorgos (03:09)
I mean, I hope that wherever I am in these circumstances, there's no one around me because they would be really sick of hearing me sing horribly along to those tunes. So it's not in the interest of the general public. That's all I have to live with.
Martin (03:25)
fair. Dog Days I guess or what which what what song are you all of them?
Yiorgos (03:30)
I mean,
I'll take it all. But I do have like a Spotify playlist where it's just like songs that I like to like belt to when you're like cleaning or that sort of thing. And she has a song called June that in my head is in my tone and my abilities and is absolutely not.
Martin (03:52)
It sucks when you do the playback or when you kind of really know and you're like, no, I was really good at that. And then it was like, no, this is just mediocre karaoke voice, if anything, right?
Yiorgos (04:05)
And like he used to do, this is how musical I am, but like he would put your ears in words, right? To like hear yourself. Like, I don't know, I don't know if the science is there,
Martin (04:13)
I...
Yiorgos (04:14)
but I remember doing that as a kid. You would like do this, so you can hear yourself more.
Martin (04:20)
I, is that science? I don't know if that's science. Yeah. I'm going to try that. I
Yiorgos (04:23)
No. I'm sure there's something I'm not going to do.
Martin (04:28)
want to try it. Does it sound, does it? No, who knows?
Yiorgos (04:31)
Hehehehe
Martin (04:31)
Well, we'll see. All right. Next, next one. all right. You're, I don't know, midnight snacking. What's, what's your go to?
Yiorgos (04:46)
legitimate questions. probably just chips and let's
Martin (04:50)
Chips, chips.
Yiorgos (04:51)
be very Canadian, ketchup chips.
Martin (04:53)
catch up chips like ketchup lays. Yeah, there's,
Yiorgos (04:55)
Yeah, that's hard.
Martin (04:57)
I've seen other brands try to try to take on the, the ketchup flavor. I feel like there's a ruffles. I've seen ruffles or a version of rough like the wavy chip. it just doesn't, it doesn't sit well with me. I'm like,
Yiorgos (05:13)
No, it's
too aggressive. I'd like not to see the stain of ketchup on my teeth the next morning. That's my barrier to be like, too much, too
Martin (05:20)
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah.
Yiorgos (05:24)
much.
Martin (05:25)
Yeah. Now I'm definitely not like I'm a I'm a I'm a big midnight snacker. And if yeah, I'm not brushing my teeth in admin. Like it's just it's not it's not great for like, my dentist would not be happy to listen to this, I'm sure but or maybe happy because I'm keeping them
Yiorgos (05:41)
Are you stealing your kids snacks?
Martin (05:43)
sorry.
Yiorgos (05:44)
Are you stealing your kids snacks like them? Do they catch you like taking them out?
Martin (05:48)
Now see, there's real
questions right there. That is a flaw. That is a big flaw of mine. Like respecting other people's food
in the house is not not a strength of mine. I've been called out on it and my wife used to call me out on it as well. It wasn't like, don't eat this. Like it's gotten to that point. Like this is for me, not you.
But previously, it's like, oh, there's like this cake in the fridge, and I'm just gonna have it and one bite turns into Yeah, but the girls the girls shamed me like my daughter shamed me into like, no, I have to. So for all the years that Karina had to put up with me, it was like a few times of just seeing the girls cry. Like, where's my where's the thing that I was waiting for the next day? Okay, all right. We're not doing we can't can't do that anymore.
Yiorgos (06:44)
You
Martin (06:45)
So yeah.
Yeah. Um, let's, uh, let's dive in. Um, your gross, we, know each other. worked together a while back. I learned so much from you. And the reason I wanted to do the podcast today is cause there's definitely a few areas where you shine that I think nobody else shines on. And I think that would be a cool thing in place to kind of like dive into. Um, but for the folks listening,
possibly snacking on ketchup chips. what's, I would love to just get like your background story, how, how it all began. How'd you get into the wonderful people ops world?
Yiorgos (07:30)
Yeah, I am one of those rare people who've been in some form of recruitment their entire career. It's just like the nature of it has been different.
Martin (07:39)
Okay.
Yiorgos (07:40)
And I always attribute it to, if you remember those university recruiters, the ones who would come to your high school potentially and they would talk to you about why you should go to their university and sort of the programs and all of that. There was one who came to my school who I thought was phenomenal.
And I just wanted her job and very much like followed it. I went to the
Martin (08:03)
No way.
Yiorgos (08:03)
university that she represented. I worked in the office from my first year until my last year alongside her in various roles. And then I did the exact same job that she did and went back to my high school to do the same pitch. And so again, different type of recruiting, but like the fundamentals were there and I, it just really appealed to me and I was lucky to have that exposure early on.
Martin (08:28)
So wait a second. you intentionally manifested this job into like, someone came to your school and, you're like, want that person's job. And then you met them. And then you ended up working with them. Okay.
Yiorgos (08:47)
Yeah, I even did
the same degree that she did. wasn't very original there. I was like, well, if that's all the things that she did to get here, then like, let me go. Let me cook.
Martin (08:58)
Uh, okay. So let's double click on like, what's
Yiorgos (09:00)
Hahaha
Martin (09:01)
the, how that's a strategy. So that's a strategy. I love that. I mean, as recruiters, um, we obviously, uh, appreciate someone's gusto and, and like, uh, uh, what's the word the, they're just like energy towards you can kind of pick up on like, Oh, this person really wants this role. They're really working hard for it.
It sounds like you did that for this particular role in more ways like taking the same class like maybe maybe I'm over overthinking this and just be like, we can move on Martin, but like, that sounds kind of pivotal. Like, like, how before that, what were you thinking of doing, I guess?
Yiorgos (09:47)
don't know if I had plans of it. My parents are entrepreneurs. owned restaurants and catering businesses. And so that was my exposure. I don't really understand what corporate jobs were or anything like that. I think it's
Martin (10:03)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (10:03)
also very typical of a newcomer story where all the jobs that my parents spoke to me about were just of like the stereotypes as well of doctors, lawyers, that sort of thing.
It's not to say none of those interested me, but I guess like seeing someone in their job being incredible at it and I find like finding it exciting was like, I think I can piece together the same path for myself. But no, wasn't, I didn't know this is where I would end up, but I'm thankful that it is.
Martin (10:39)
Was it was it how do you feel when you realize, I'm working with a person that like months ago, if not years ago, like a few short years ago, how did it feel to kind of reflect on that and say, I'm I set out to do this. Whoops, I set out to do this. And now I'm doing it.
Yiorgos (11:00)
think it was only in reflection that I realized how much it just sort of followed that path. But certainly, I would like to think that the office, the liaison office, as it was called at the university, I'd like to think that they thought of me as their little kid or something like that. I truly did every job that they could. I was a room tour attendant, so I lived on campus. And when tours would come visit, they would come to my room.
And so they can see what it was like to live on campus for like the students and the parents. And then I was one of the tour guides. And then I also did like administration work and then eventually like became a liaison officer and traveled around Ontario talking
to students. It was a really fortunate situation that it all just kind of trickled into one another.
Martin (11:48)
This opens, this opens up another I have my, my biases when it comes to like what makes a good recruiter before they're a recruiter sort of like, you know, the classic like, you want somebody that's in hospitality because they care about the customer experience. And so the candidate experience translates nicely, but like campus recruitment, just by nature of the title sounds like it makes sense, but I've never really double, I never really
leaned into it. And now it makes so much more sense just as you said, giving people tours of the campus and really, we want we want you here. And that always came through in your recruiting. Where'd you go after that?
Yiorgos (12:32)
So from there, moved to recruiting. Actually, I worked for an immigrant-serving agency. And so I ran a program that helped newcomer youth find their first job opportunities in Canada. That was incredible. I think, again, set a really good foundation for what it's like to work with employers and different types of candidates and their backgrounds. I worked for a large, or I worked for the government.
for a little bit. And then finance. Now it's been startups and sort of tech since, but I feel like I've covered a lot of ground. Maybe it means I have also changed jobs far too much, but that's like a different conversation. But I feel like I've had the opportunity to see quite a bit in my recruiting career.
Martin (13:23)
which I think is it's it's interesting I when when I look at candidates and like the classic when when I was indoctrinated into the world of recruitment, you know, the it was a very traditional recruitment firm. And we would adopt what hiring managers and the industry I was recruiting for was a bit more traditional. And so it was like, you know, job hoppers would be kind of like
frowned upon and what I've found is in the tech world, like a the lifespan of an employer, the life cycle, not the lifespan, sorry. The life cycle of Yeah, it's an important distinction. Yeah.
Yiorgos (14:05)
Very definitive hiring process.
Martin (14:11)
The the life cycle of an employee at a startup is typically, you know, a year and a half is a reasonable amount of time to work at a company because you
you know, it grows quickly, you move on, you, you get bored, they go through a change, whatever the case might be. But I've always been of the mindset and it's always bothered me. It's like, the more diverse experience an individual has, the better because they're not. This is actually a bias against people that have been at the same place for 15 plus years. on my end, but yeah, I guess, you've had a wide variety of experiences.
And you, and because of that, you get to bring all these interesting, you get to bring the best practice or like an interesting tool that you learned from one job to another. What are some of the things that you've picked up along the way from maybe different industries or from past jobs that you still sort of rely on today that, that you can think of?
Yiorgos (15:11)
it's terrible. But like the first thing that comes to mind is like just the hiring biases that our different managers have across these industries. It's like fascinating to me to hear like sort of what their ideal candidate looks like and the things they avoid and how if you just switch industry, can like switch or
Martin (15:30)
Mm.
Yiorgos (15:31)
just change. you know, working for the government or like the large bank, you know, they didn't want people who didn't have sort of corporate
experience or companies of a certain size. Then we move to tech and anytime you see an application from someone who works for a large employer, it's always like, well, can they handle the ambiguity of this environment? So those are always the ones that
come to mind often. It's like, every time I've started a new job or worked in a different industry, that profile of a candidate has changed in
Martin (16:04)
Right.
Yiorgos (16:05)
terms of the core things that people are looking or trying to avoid.
Martin (16:09)
What, how do you, do you see, how do you view those moments where you've got a hiring manager that's very sort of set in their ways and their mindset is pretty rigid and you're trying, you're working on a hard role and you know, the candidates that you have or that are coming in or that you're finding have kind of that, you know, that like, as you present them, you know, maybe they're
They have some of those traits or, you know, I'm like, oh, the hiring manager's got a bias against this candidate, but I know they're great. What's how, how do you, how do you approach that conversation or, or how do you present that candidate?
Yiorgos (16:52)
I think it's fun to do a little bit of fact finding of like, where did this preference come from? Is the hiring manager just trying to hire someone exactly like themselves and it was the same experience? so is that why there may be prioritizing, you know, whatever skills? Is it based on actual experience and like people they've hired in the past? And if you look at the team and the high performers, like, is it true that they all share some of the same foundation? Or is it just sort of like assumption based?
And if that is, do think that's where it's an interesting place for us to step in. I always want to learn more. And there have been instances where a hiring manager has pointed something out that I hadn't considered before earlier in my recruitment career. And a hiring manager say, you know, I don't want to, I'm not looking to interview anyone who hasn't stayed for longer than six months in their last position, six months to a year. And
Martin (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yiorgos (17:47)
I was someone.
at that time who had a number of job stints that were shorter than that. And it was a sales role that we were hiring for. And I remember like being a little bit sort of defensive of like, why can't we hire those people? What I also, you know, I couldn't help but take it personal as well. And when he broke down the rationale, was like, well, usually if you think of a sales role, speaking like sort of broad based.
You're not necessarily working on your own deal or your own leads if you've only been somewhere for six months or a year. Usually you're taking over other people's leads or pipeline, especially if you're in this case, SaaS enterprise sales. I'm being very specific here. But I loved that. I was like, you know what? Yeah, here I am thinking that you have a bias, but you're really just trying to be mindful of what someone can actually achieve in this role within a certain time.
It's not to say it works across the board, but it didn't illuminate something for me that I hadn't considered before.
Martin (18:48)
Yeah. And those are the most fun hiring managers to work with when, when you've got your own approach to things and they've got theirs and you're finding out like there is, regardless, there's always a calibration process, but when the calibration process teaches you something new, it's kind of, kind of nice how having done recruitment for, for so long, how
I imagine, I mean, I find it for myself, like, I would feel pretty confident in, you know, feeling right about my assumptions or the approach I might take with how do you stay? Like, how do you is that something you find a challenge with where you just come into come into this situation with the hiring manager? I'm like, I've got all those preconceived notions. I know what this role is. I'm just kind of like going through the motions or
do you take a different approach to it? And like every, every hiring manager is like a brand new opportunity to kind of like, like, how do you if that's the case, how do you kind of get into that headspace, I guess?
Yiorgos (19:57)
Yeah, I guess like how much is our curiosity like leading it versus just like,
Martin (20:00)
Hmm.
Yiorgos (20:01)
hey, been there and done that. This is what I know what works. Let me just go like do the thing.
Martin (20:06)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (20:07)
I mean, this is maybe a terrible way of answering it. But sometimes you learn that just by like putting a diverse group of folks in front of them. So that's usually like where I want to kind of get that feedback. So rather than purely just going based on like the back and forth or that intake leading, whatever.
So like, hey, I'm gonna gather, let's say a group of people who are some of exactly what you've told me you're looking for and others where I think they could be a potential fit and benefit to the team. And I'm gonna ask you to interview them all and then we're gonna debrief about them and then see what worked, what didn't work and what came out of that conversation. Now, it's always wanna be mindful of like candidates time and effort in that. But I find that's one of the most effective ways for us to do our job is like.
just let them speak to these people and sort of gather the details from there.
Martin (21:00)
Yeah, you're kind of you get feedback from them and then you iterate basically.
Yiorgos (21:06)
Yeah, yeah, it should always be like a pretty live process
and changing it. But I do believe in kind of having a pretty big deep dive at the start. I'm bad. I like I'm guilty for roles that are maybe evergreens or that you've recruited for before. Like you kind of cheat the intake meeting and you're like, yeah,
Martin (21:24)
Yeah
Yiorgos (21:25)
yeah, like, you know what we're doing. And you don't bother gathering like the interview questions for all of that at the start. It is never.
kind of beneficial at the end. And so sometimes it's good to remind yourself of like, hey, if I was a new recruiter, I wouldn't be doing this. don't like, don't give yourself too much leeway just because you're like old and gray, that you don't
Martin (21:47)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (21:47)
have to do these things anymore. They're, they're fundamentals for a reason.
Martin (21:51)
Yeah, yeah, there you can't. The pain of having known you could have done the work upfront and didn't is definitely not worth it. Having made that mistake a few times myself. Yeah.
Yiorgos (22:06)
But one piece, and when we're talking about experience and sort of like the work that I've been lucky to do is I've never done agency. So like there's a huge sort of gap. And if I think of peers who have been recruiters for as long as I have, you know, at some point they've had some type of agency experience. And that I used to think that like the fundamental difference would be like agencies. You've just got like a really good knack for your data.
and sort of like your pipelines. like just being very metric driven. And I think that's a skill I've developed more and more over time. But I spoke to someone recently and was like, what do you think the gaps would be if someone like with my profile moved to agency? And they said the one thing I would struggle with that they, or, you know, they told me they think I would struggle with is I wouldn't have ownership over the hiring processes for these clients I'm working with. Like I don't own their, I.
I may be able to inform or tweak or offer recommendations, but if the company already has a recruiting team and kind of that set, it's not my job to come in and rebuild their process and sort of tell them what it should be. And that was fascinating. was like, I wonder what that would be like. Because I really have been working for the majority of my career in places where I do get to control what that process looks like.
Martin (23:32)
Yeah. No, it's it you find yourself having having I started off my career in the agency side for a few years. And I went internal and so it was so refreshing to come like, don't get me wrong, there's challenges internally. But all of a sudden, I had all this empathy for all the people I was working with previously, which was like, there's shenanigans internally. And then,
Yiorgos (23:55)
What a good one.
Martin (23:57)
and all the times I was just calling bullshit or trying to
like be like, they're just giving me the runaround. You know, there's a probably a good chunk of those times where they weren't giving me the runaround and they were dealing with just like the bureaucratic process of hiring at their particular organization. And that stuff's so much further out of your control as an agency, as an agency recruiter. So it, it, it, what I found was that it forces you to
It kind of forces you to be less, you kind of have to go into this niche of like, they really have to be amazing on paper, amazing in person. There's less room for sort of like dark horse candidates where it's like, you know, doesn't look good on paper, but you know, I met with them and they're incredible. Like you can't have because there's so many other variables out of your control. You're really just like,
this has to go through the process seamlessly. Like they have to meet them based on the paper. They have, they have to want to meet them based on what they see on paper. And then, you know, how we present them as well. Like you, you know, as an internal, you know, you can just flip a resume to the hiring manager on Slack or something like that. Like, I think you should meet this person that, the, is not the same when, when you're like a third party, like until you've built up trust, right. And that's kind of.
It just takes longer ultimately.
Yiorgos (25:29)
I do love those moments where it happens every now and then when our hiring manager will slack me and be like, why am I meeting this person? I was like, what do mean why? Because I said so. are
Martin (25:37)
You
Yiorgos (25:39)
you? And then I was just like, oh yeah, maybe I had to create like a little bit of a business case for this person who I sent no resume with and just have like a short note that's like, met them two years ago. Good person. Just talk to them. But yeah,
Martin (25:51)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (25:53)
I've definitely had
that when they're like, why am I meeting? And I always have a moment when I around and it's like.
Who are you asking? Excuse me? Yeah, it is in your calendar. We are past the point of questions.
Martin (26:00)
This is my job. I know what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah.
You're gonna take this candidate and you're gonna like them. Yeah.
Yiorgos (26:09)
Yeah, I've definitely
bribed a few teams though, and be like, I'm taking a risk on this one. And if it totally sucks, I'll go buy you some donuts. just I'm just acknowledging it.
Martin (26:23)
like that. I like that approach. Bribery. I've never I've never I mean, I've, I think what's important when you're either way, like whether you're on the internal side or you're an external recruiter is like the transparency is like the candor like, if you're going to present a candidate that doesn't necessarily make sense on paper, like you have to have a justification or like at least provide your reasoning.
Yeah, so we've spent a bunch talking about obviously, like, the candidate side of things, and presenting and recruitment, though the one thing that I mentioned at the beginning of this episode was really just like my genuine admiration of like how you crush employment branding. And just not on just like
I don't know how to put it into words, but anytime somebody is like, who do I like who who should I talk to? We're struggling with employment like your gross got to talk to your gross like that is the one of the one of the many things that you're just like, it seems so natural and and and you know, folks that are listening are like, what the hell is he talking about? Just go through your grosses posts on LinkedIn, and see how he talks about the companies that he works for.
and how he talks about the roles that he's working on. And there's always this like authentic, genuine, like, and exciting, like you take the job description, like the boring job description, and you find ways to just like make it exciting, or even just make the company exciting. And you've worked for a bunch of different ones, I guess, how do you? How does this all come about? Like, what's your approach? What's your angle on this?
Yiorgos (28:12)
Well, first of all, thank you. and it's such like a struggle because I hear you say that and I do agree. I can take the compliment. So is it going to be one of those like, I'll fight you over kind of saying something nice about me? I do think it's true. I do think it's a strength that storytelling fit, but it's also
Martin (28:31)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (28:32)
something like I just don't do anymore and I. And it's not for reasons that like I'm necessarily happy with.
or not because I don't think it's necessary. I see a lot of versions of storytelling and employer branding that exists that, not that I was the first person to do by any stretch, but follow a similar logic to what I
Martin (28:55)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (28:57)
used to do. And I love them. They're just well done. think people are getting more creative. And it always felt to me, it was just important to kind of tell the story of the places I worked in my experiences with it.
I wanted the intent was always, I wanted candidates have a sense of what to expect before they even interview me. Like if you read through my posts or if you saw anything online that I was a part of, you'd be like, totally. I know what to expect from this guy when
Martin (29:29)
Hmm.
Yiorgos (29:29)
I'm interviewing with him. I wanted them to like know that I would probably be more casual than they, other recruiters might be that I would try to create a space where it was like a conversation.
and that I would be there to kind of answer their questions in like a rich way. So that was like, I think really kind of the start of it. Like, let me give people a heads up as to what to expect.
Martin (29:56)
Do you know the origins of why you took that approach?
Yiorgos (30:01)
I guess you hear enough as recruiters of sort of, I mean, you get email or you get emails or sort of feedback and people being like, this was like such a nice change from like a typical recruiting call or sort of what I was expecting from others. And I guess I just started to think of like, why would people say that? Like what was different about my style? And I think it was just like tone and sort of how I set the stage for those conversations or the...
expectations I put on myself for what communications and the experience would look like for anyone who was interviewing with me and the companies I worked with. And I shouldn't be so like altruistic about it. So it was also like selfish. I started doing this a lot more when I was new to Toronto, new to like tech. I felt like I needed to sort of at least like make a name for myself in some way and
Martin (30:58)
Hmm.
Yiorgos (30:59)
being public.
about the work I was doing as a way to achieve that. I again have mixed feelings about it now. I think there's power in being someone who just does your job quietly.
Martin (31:11)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (31:11)
But it's hard to do that as a recruiter. mean, we are in the sales industry. So I do think some public. And I have also stopped doing those types of posts for other reasons, which we can get into. But I feel like I've answered your question in a really roundabout way.
Martin (31:26)
No, no. I guess the part that I'm curious about is there's still like this aspect that stands out. And so it feels like you've done a really good job of either copywriting or curating the, even the images and, and it's, you know, the employment branding side, like anytime you would check out the careers page of any of the companies that you were at.
It was always, you know, a cut above the rest. And so I guess the, the thought that the curiosity, guess I'm just curious, like, is, is there, do you, do you pull experiences from all the way back to, sort of like campus recruitment in, into it, or are there other skill sets that you're bringing in? Or is it really just like, I'm, you know,
like a version of Pinterest except like, like, I like this person's approach. I'm going to steal this part. And it's just like this thing that you worked on consistently and it became your brand and your approach became your own after you kind of like pulled a bunch of collection, like, guess, or did you take classes or did you pull in like some marketing stuff? Like, I guess curious to know like how it all came about.
Yiorgos (32:48)
No classes or anything, maybe I should. I should take like grow class or something like that to really like get better. Maybe it does go back to some of those early recruiting experiences of like, if I think of being a campus tour guide, so I also had a bad reputation for maybe having campus tours that were far too long, no surprise there. Especially if it
Martin (33:11)
You
Yiorgos (33:11)
was just like, like maybe if it was just one family on the tour.
I would do everything for them. So like, I'd be like, all right, how much of like a detailed tour do you want? I can give you like the high level of like, we'll just walk around, we'll go visit sort of a residence, we'll go check out a lecture hall, we'll see kind of the gym and call it a day. And when they would ask like, no, I I'd love to like, maybe I always remember this one, it was like a drama kid. It's like, can we go like see backstage and like, go to the theater.
And I was like, oh yeah, I can make this happen. I've got the keys, you know?
Martin (33:45)
Hahaha
Yiorgos (33:46)
And suddenly like what's meant to be an hour tours, three hours. So I think it was all this sort of interest of showing something, kind of anticipating what someone would want to know even to this day
as a recruiter and kind of getting ahead of those questions, giving them those insights before and seeing what means we can share it. And yeah, trying to kind of like break down the barriers.
I think too, to the recruitment process. So it is a black hole for most people.
Martin (34:17)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (34:19)
Most people don't get feedback on their performance. Most people don't get email communications about timelines or sort of expectations. And they're never really sure of what recruiters or hiring managers are looking for. I'm lucky to be on the other side, so why not like share that or?
kind of illuminate it where possible. So that way people hopefully like can feel more comfortable in what they're getting themselves into and sort of what they're signing up for when they apply for a role or interview or even just kind of like the industry as a whole.
Martin (34:57)
We've spent a bit of time, obviously talking about the things that I'm distinctly aware of, of your strengths, just cause we had the good fortune of working together for a bit. But, your career has evolved significantly since we last worked together. And I'm, I'm curious, I would love to just kind of like pick your brain on, on some of the, some of the challenges and problems that you've been chipping away at for, for other companies above and beyond recruitment. Like maybe even just.
kind of picking up and kind of explaining how your roles expanded from a career perspective for the recruiters out there that have been recruiters for a long time and how you've, because I know you've worked on some things outside of it as well, so.
Yiorgos (35:43)
Yeah, I've been lucky to, you know, build the foundations for recruiting processes now at companies that didn't have them to like lead the function to also, I think one of the more complicated parts of our job is to match hiring plans with headcount plans and sort of all of those expectations and running our data machine. So there's clear kind of transparency and what it takes to bring people on board. think something that
relates and if we
go back to even just that employer branding side of things and that storytelling piece, I think something else that has happened over the course of my career is experiencing like layoffs, ones at
Martin (36:24)
I'm
Yiorgos (36:25)
companies that maybe had mass layoffs that I wasn't involved in and then a few where I was a part of those layoffs and those were experiences that have also like fundamentally shifted my approach to recruitment and maybe why
And I hate this. I hate that this has changed, but why I have more hesitancy about like sharing the stories of the places I work because I think of. I have this hyper like, I guess anxiety or sort of worry about selling people on an opportunity that might not actually
Martin (36:59)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (37:00)
like come to fruition
Martin (37:01)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (37:02)
or being really inauthentic. And. It's like, how do you balance that with our responsibility of
of telling the stories
Martin (37:13)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (37:14)
of the places we work, which I should say, like, I do fundamentally think it's a job of a recruiter. Like, fundamentally, we need to dedicate a time each week to some form of employer branding initiatives, and they need to be public. It can't just be all behind the scenes and relationship based. But I get so worried about it now, because I look back at the places where I have posted and nothing was, everything was
not just that it's glowing, but you're talking about your experience and you're talking about feeling engaged and excited. And then you find yourself laid off or the people you hired have all been laid off. it's like, did I, did I, did I set this up? Like, did I create this sort of lie? Was I a part of building this like misconception about what the company was capable of? And that those are conversations I never
thought of earlier in my career and certainly didn't think I'd be having and ones that I frankly still struggle with.
Martin (38:20)
How how has your approach changed? Would you say like I and I know what you're talking about first firsthand and have seen like it is it's definitely a thing that crosses your mind. I would imagine as a human being and as a recruiter, like I'm talent attraction. I'm trying to attract people to this company. Companies aren't perfect. You know, there's always
There's always aspects of the company's culture or just like the runway that's that's realistic runway versus what you know, they just raised a bunch of money, but actually a bunch of it was to pay debts or something like that. And so like what there is not smoke and mirrors. It's just the tech ecosystem
can kind of operate that way. And everybody is putting their best foot is similarly to like social media. Everybody you see everybody's highlight reel.
And but you don't see the you don't see the the negatives as much. And so I guess how how is your relationship to those conversations changed with candidates? I remember how mine did, but I'm just curious, you brought it up. What's different?
Yiorgos (39:32)
Yeah,
I think you so how I break down some of those common questions is different. So for more experienced candidates who are thinking about tech, like they will ask you about funding, they'll know the nuances of it. And so making sure you have that. But for folks who maybe are new to the industry and aren't prepared with those types of questions, I will still answer them and anticipate and be like, hey, you're not asking me about X, but you should.
Martin (39:59)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (40:00)
And so here's what I'm going to do.
I think I talked to historical information a lot more. whether that's historically, this is what layoffs have looked like or haven't looked like at X place, or even this is how many people got their bonuses last year. Here's the actual number. So that way you can have real data. So even if a candidate isn't asking for those specifics, I'll make sure that I have them. And then the side that I guess to.
think of like more of the sort of outward facing is like, unfortunately, it just like, I don't talk online as much about the places I've worked or I work at. And if I do, it's very like small, minimal updates, again, more data driven than just sort of what my experience has been like. The last one, though, I think is important. am mindful in my conversations and I catch myself with candidates is
When they ask, like, what's the culture like of the places you work or sort of what are the good things? I always say, it's in my experience on this team, in my experience
Martin (41:07)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yiorgos (41:09)
working with X. it,
Martin (41:12)
subjective.
Yiorgos (41:13)
very much, maybe, maybe I always hoped that they would understand that it was like, my own personal experience, I can't speak for the organization, but now I just call it out much more directly. What have you changed?
Martin (41:29)
Well, I, you know, from a fractional recruitment perspective, which is how I'm still involved in it. I think the, the awkward thing is that like, when people do ask the question, like, how is the culture? It's like, I'm not really embedded in the culture. It's harder for me to answer. Right. So then you're limited to like, these are the values that the company has shared with us. These are the ones that I see them really living. And so.
you know, we're embedded typically. So, you know, we'll be in their slack groups and we'll show up to their town halls and, and whatnot. but that it's, it's, it doesn't feel like we can, especially at the beginning, like, you know, I'm, technically a new employee. I've, just only started working there for a few weeks kind of And I'm, that's changed in the sense that I'm just hyper transparent about that. Like, here's what I know.
I know that based on what we're looking for and based on what you have on paper, there's an interest in your profile because that's what the hiring managers told me. But when it comes to the culture, what I usually do is rather than feeling I'm sort of like a relay of information. So it's like, this is what's important to the candidate. and then that'll give me more conversation pieces to chat about with the hiring manager.
And then all effective. it becomes one of those circumstances of like, I gather information a bit more than, than just having it at my disposal. And so I find, you know, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'm going to find out for you kind of deal. And I have no shame in that because I would rather say, I don't know. And I've always gotten more, it feels like the candidates have respected
that answer far more than just like,
parroting off the values for the sake of like, yeah, I know their company values. And I've read their glass door so I can hint at, know, what some of the challenges might be. But I rather, and I, what I recommend typically to them is like, use this experience with, you know, the hiring manager to really dig in and find out what they think. Cause again, to your point, it's subjective. Like my experience is not going to be their experience.
Yiorgos (43:49)
This actually reminds me of when we used to work together. So I literally like, it's by remember it of when we were filling out the lever sort of like, you know, backend and being like, okay, what's the template look like for when we're doing intake calls and something that I loved that I learned from you. And that was important to you at the time is like, you know, you always have some section that's like compensation. So what's
Martin (44:11)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (44:12)
their cop expectations, blah, blah, blah. And you were like, oh, and we're also going to add a field about like,
what are their motivators? So what are things that they've brought up over the conversation that's really important to them? So whether that's maybe some of the more ongoing topics like learning and development or whatever, or maybe there's some other nuances that have come through your interviews and track those as well. So that way, when you are making an offer or you're moving to those stages, you can look back and reflect on it like what you just said. But it also, not that I do this often, but there are times too when
I may be presenting an offer and they might have another offer on the table or more than one. And you reflect back on the early conversation, like you told me all of these things matter to you. And I know that the offer I'm making actually doesn't meet all of those things. But
Martin (45:03)
Mm.
Yiorgos (45:03)
what you're telling me about the other company does. So like, I'm not going to sell you hard on this. Like that's
Martin (45:09)
Hmm.
Yiorgos (45:10)
not my job. Take the time that you need, but like I'm also comfortable recognizing where there are gaps and be like,
you know, that what you decide to do with the information is up to you as a candidate. I, it's funny, I haven't thought of it in forever. But just when you were talking about those early conversations, I remember distinctively how we built out those lever templates and sort of the
Martin (45:33)
Yeah, I spent a lot of time.
Yiorgos (45:35)
categories of things that we would track in our calls.
Martin (45:37)
Yeah. No, that's, mean, it's easy to forget too. Cause you ask it at the beginning and then the typical course of, uh, of an interview cycle happens. And then you, you, the recruiter forgets and the candidate forgets too. They get West away with the journey and things are exciting and like, Oh, you know, they're talking to their partner. like, Oh, I'm moving to the next round or,
Yiorgos (45:59)
Yes.
Martin (46:00)
know, or they're telling their friends. And it's very much like, it's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of doing well in an interview in general. And what you said was interesting, because I feel like people listening, some people maybe not like the recruiters, maybe like founders or senior leaders that are like hiring managers might kind of be like, really, you want to like, dissuade a candidate and you're not dissuading a candidate. But like,
you would leave room for them to make their own choice instead of hard pitching them. And I find myself agreeing with you, but I find it's probably like controversial or less talked about in the sense that like, if you know, based on everything that the candidates told you that like their shelf life with the organization, the life cycle rather is not lifespan.
Yiorgos (46:55)
Not lifespan, not lifespan.
Martin (47:00)
If you know, based on their motivations for making a change that like, ultimately the the other company and not every candidate, I think you do a really good job of that as well. It's like you build a really strong relationship with the candidates, where you've got all this extra data on like, everything else. Whereas like, sometimes I find I just compare is like, I don't I don't go as deep or I don't build up that relationship as closely.
but they're comfortable sharing like, I've got this other offer. You get that with some candidates, you don't get them with all, but when they come to you you're like, like that actually sounds more aligned with what you're looking for. I think at the end of the day, maybe, you you don't close that particular role and that candidate would have been good, but like for how long would they have been good? Right. Like
is it just six like, yes, you could have closed the role, but like, that's a
short term win, as opposed to like, you really truly want that person that's like, if you can get all their motivations, like I'm leaving this company, because there's no growth for me and the person I report into, I'm not learning anything. And if they come in, you know, to over to your organization, and it's the exact same experience, then what are you offering them? Right? Like, maybe it's a 10k that 10k bump isn't going to cover
the gap that they originally left their first organization for.
Yiorgos (48:20)
Right. Yeah. And what I'm going to say next might not help my sort of business case to why founders should hire me or something like that, but it is in the strategic interest of us as recruiters to build these long-term relationships with candidates. I like am shocked with how undervalued that is amongst fellow recruiters. We will meet these candidates again, whether that's through other recruitment processes where they're applying for jobs.
if when we change companies or when potentially, excuse me, we're changing jobs and we're applying to companies that they now work for. You want these people to think of you highly. You want them to come back to you. You know, I have a ton of messages in my inbox right now from candidates I interviewed years and years ago who are interested in a role that I've just posted. I haven't spoken to them since those interview processes, but like kept up with their career.
I value that. That to me is such a measure of success and one I don't take lightly. recruiters really need to think about that. This is our reputation. It's not just the
Martin (49:32)
Mm. Mm.
Yiorgos (49:33)
company's reputation in the market. And same for hiring teams as well. If you are the hiring manager or even if you're just on the panel, you will meet these people again. And they might be on the opposite side. And you don't want to be in a situation where they're evaluating you and they're like,
you actually were really horrible to me during the review process. Like, I'm not
Martin (49:51)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (49:53)
going to advocate for you coming here, regardless of your skill set. And that is something that I remember finding really refreshing. Again, when you and I worked together, I've said this to you before, but I remember at some point, I don't know, you put a candidate in my pipeline.
to in the ATS. I remember I'm always very asticular for someone putting someone into my pipeline without telling me why. Because I'm like, whoa, what is this name? Why are they here?
Martin (50:21)
Hey, hey, who is this?
Yiorgos (50:23)
Why are they in that stage? And I maybe got a little bit too angry about it. And be like, know, Martin, who's this dude? Why is he in my like software engineering pipeline? And you're like, oh, you know, literally kind of similar things. You're like, I interviewed this candidate years ago. We've kept in the loop.
the company I was working for at the time wasn't the right fit, but all of the skills set in there, like they reached out to me kind of casually, or you reached out to them for a coffee and they're back. And that mindset, that attitude, that approach that you had, yeah, like I think fundamentally reprioritized that in my own kind of approach to recruiting.
Martin (51:07)
I mean, long term games, I guess, right? Like, I see it almost as like, I'm reminded of, like, buying a home and working with a realtor and working with, you know, not great realtors and working with like, and now I have the one that I will call, and she knows I'll call her, because she's always done right by by me, even if it was like a hard, hard answer, or like, we didn't get the house that we wanted.
and whatnot. And I've and I've worked with the like super short term transactional and, and it just makes it easier if you play the long game, I think. And it was just like, okay, I'm you it's it's a fine balance, right? Like what you're kind of illustrating is like, you're like, you know, founders might not like hearing this or something or not making a case for yourself. But you
If anything, that should be such a stronger case because the network of people that you bring along with you when you post a role, right, is massive now because you've got all these, you can sort of like reap the benefits of all the hard work that you've put in over the years versus just start from scratch for every role kind of deal. Right. And that's not brought up enough. That's not valued enough. That's not even, you know, when has you seen
on a job description for a talent acquisition person or you know, and any type of recruitment role, where it's like must have a strong network. Like, that's literally our jobs.
Yiorgos (52:39)
Yeah,
and that's so interesting that you say that too, because I don't think it's valued as much when it comes to those like talent roles, whether
Martin (52:47)
Hmm.
Yiorgos (52:48)
that's a head of talent or just a recruiter. But you and I know that when we hire senior leadership in other parts of the organization, one of the things we're doing is to hire their network, right? And one of the first questions that will that the team will have when they join is like, Hey, where are your referrals? And they're like, it's day two. I'm like, Yeah, I didn't hire you.
Martin (53:05)
Yeah, yeah.
Yiorgos (53:09)
to like sit here and look pretty. Where's your list? Like, that's why we hired you. That is fundamentally kind
Martin (53:13)
Yeah. What's your LinkedIn password? Let's go.
Yiorgos (53:16)
of the value proposition, you know? But yeah, I don't necessarily hear that quite as much when it comes to filling our roles, but we certainly have that lens when we hire other leadership.
Martin (53:28)
What's caught your attention in in the recruitment space as of late? I mean, you and I have been at it for quite some time in the recruitment
world. There's been a lot of change. I shutter to say AI and all that fun stuff. But you know, like, I'm sure there's, you know, areas of that that you're paying attention to. I'm curious what what, like, what's captured your interest and attention or what part of if this is the part
of your career where you're sharpening your saw how are you sharpening it and yeah
Yiorgos (54:07)
I don't, well, this is going to be more of like passive use, like the note takers, good Lord, I am never going back.
Martin (54:15)
Hahaha
Yiorgos (54:16)
Then like we get pitched products all the time, right? Like there will be some
Martin (54:19)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (54:20)
in reach of like, have this new thing that's going to revolutionize how you recruit. it's like, no, it really hasn't changed anything. The note takers, different story. The first second I turned that baby on, I was like, yes. And
Martin (54:34)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (54:35)
the
Actually, I should go more than just the surface sort of. So the initial benefit is we don't have to type the entire time during the conversation. It's nice to reflect on the notes. It breaks things down beautifully, all of that sort of stuff. But the other benefit, which is important to you, is if you are adding the note taker, whether it has an audio recording or a video recording to later stages in the interview process that you're not involved in, it helps us as recruitment teams audit our hiring managers.
on it our hiring teams. I I can't physically sit in and every interview, but quality control is really important, very much like they do in sales, right? So now with these AI tools, I'm able to go through and be like, hey, I'm gonna just pick this 10th interview from this month, and I'm gonna listen in and see what the questions were, how the hiring manager engaged with the candidate, did they kind of probe the way that we want them to probe, all of those things.
That I do think has fundamentally changed because we have such visibility now into all stages of the recruitment process. it's something that hiring teams, I think, often forget is, you know, when you're doing like feedback huddles or debriefs, like, well, what did you think of this person is like, I spoke to them for 20 minutes. I was like, you're the ones who spent two hours with them. Like I got nothing.
Martin (55:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yiorgos (56:00)
Like we, our relationship is often just very transactional.
Even if we're going in a deeper layer, I'm just emailing them back and forth. But our on-call time is usually less than the hiring teams. So I do love that now I have even more data at my disposal about what has happened with the candidate throughout the process.
Martin (56:29)
Are there, are there particular note takers that you're a fan of? Did you try them all? Did you just go with the, what, how did you go about the selection process? Cause there's a million out there now. It's insane.
Yiorgos (56:40)
Yeah, did try quite a bit. found so for the more general ones that could be used for like a variety of purposes, they never truly understood the nature of like a recruiting call or an interview.
Martin (56:50)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (56:51)
And so that was a big defining one. It's like, you're treating this conversation like it's two colleagues, as opposed to like something where someone's being assessed, you know, or how they fit into our back end tools. So for me, the one that I decided to go with and
I champion is MetaView. I think it's kind of an incredible tool and it's really proved its worth. Hashtag not sponsored, hashtag would welcome swag. But I think for that, regardless of where people end up going, I think just be mindful of whether or not it knows the core intent of the conversations it's joining. And in the case of MetaView, it did, it is built for recruiters.
And so it just on the back end does a lot more. Also, it was important to you to, you know, the audio and the video recording pieces. I want to be able to separate those. I don't have the video recordings are I don't think there's any need for me to reassess a candidate's kind of like visual presence in an interview. And frankly, nor do I want to be on video for like, you know, the lifetime of a company.
for recruiters
Martin (58:03)
I
Yiorgos (58:04)
in 10 years to be like, who's this douchebag running this interview? So that was also part of the filter.
Martin (58:15)
I like I love what you said about how it gives you more information. I'm not I mean, it's obvious as you say it, but it's not it's not something I led with. Big fan of Metaview myself. That's the my note taker of choice. I use these fathom for sort of like business meetings and whatnot, because there's I find it's transcriptions pretty good. But like when it's actual recruiting, I get
The one there's two things that like, you know, maybe kind of, I'd love to hear your perspective on what I've found it good for is sort of getting ahead of sort of like the technical assessment questions. And so the gives me the like, okay, so we're going to be using, you know, MetaView or a recorder, like a, a screen recording tool of some sort. Now I'm, I'm going to ask, I want, I want to be able to ask more technical questions on your behalf hiring manager.
And so that you can listen into the responses ahead. you're kind of like, getting, you're not getting rid of stages necessarily, but the filter, the quality of information upfront is, is better. And so then you can share those like snippets with like, that's one of the, one of the things I've really loved and used like X like it is part of the intake essentially is like,
This is how it's going to work because we get ahead of things a lot better.
Yiorgos (59:42)
Yeah. And for the hiring manager to like hear their confidence level, especially on those technical questions, you know, as a someone who has a foundation technical recruiting, but who's never been like a dev or something like that, there are limits at the end of the day. I always think like, if there are three layers of questioning, I can go to level two, but like, I can't bridge the gap to level three. So in that case, I am just reading from a script and unfortunately I'm not able to necessarily like call BS on a candidate.
lying to me about that entire dev process. to get to level two, happy with, but the note taker means that you can assess it even further.
Martin (1:00:21)
you encountered a lot of those fake candidates or candidates using AI during the interview process? Like I've heard and seen a bunch about it and it feels like it's the current bogeyman of the
Yiorgos (1:00:35)
You
Martin (1:00:36)
like recruitment world but have you have do you have any tales from the the trenches so to speak?
Yiorgos (1:00:42)
Not like a juicy one because no one was outright faking it or sort of not a real person,
Martin (1:00:48)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (1:00:49)
unfortunately. Well, no, I shouldn't say unfortunately, but it would be kind of fun to experience it firsthand, I guess.
Martin (1:00:53)
Yeah, yeah.
Yiorgos (1:00:56)
I'd be willing to waste that 30 minutes.
Martin (1:00:58)
Yeah, yeah, 100 % like, ooh, this is gonna be good. even...
Yiorgos (1:01:02)
The one I still laugh at because it's just like the first time a candidate had their own note taker.
And so it was my note taker and their note taker. And I was like, I don't know if I like this. I don't remember.
Martin (1:01:13)
Hahaha.
Yiorgos (1:01:15)
And just like the hypocrisy of being like, no, no, I get to record you. You don't get to record me. And, you know, of course that naturally goes into me building like, OK, what's our process for when this happens? Let me build something into our foundation. But that one really made me laugh because I was just like, what a hypocrite. I never crossed my mind that they would start interviewing or bringing it.
In this case, guess the juicy piece is that I have had a candidate who brought in an interview. What I thought was an interview note taker, it wasn't what it did is it would listen to the call and then it would type up answers.
Martin (1:01:54)
Okay.
Yiorgos (1:01:54)
so they were just like, however that works, it was sort of like the prompt. It would just build the prompt and so they were not qualified for the role, but the, their AI tool would at least help them answer it.
Martin (1:02:06)
it, it sounded
like they were like they would see that one's interesting. Like that's a bold one because how and I imagine you would use that stunt on a larger organization because you can truly get lost as an employee in a larger organization, but that's not lasting at a startup or even a small business like you will be found out.
Yiorgos (1:02:28)
Yeah,
and this doesn't relate to the AI of it all. But I remember years ago, this was such a great sort of like moment. This is even when we worked together, it wasn't that long ago. But Cannonet connected with me on LinkedIn for a QA role. And on LinkedIn and their resume, that's how they had it labeled. They've been doing that for a year in their current organization. And the recruiter at their company saw that we connected.
and just sent me a message being
like, hey, I'm going to make assumptions. You connected with this person, FYI, that's not their job. And we are actively working with LinkedIn on getting it removed. They are not a QA at our company. They are a TSR. They are lying. And we know that they're looking to leave. And the other recruiter is like, I'm sure your interview processes will find this out pretty quickly.
Martin (1:03:22)
Mm. Yeah.
Yiorgos (1:03:25)
It's sort of that relationship that we have with one another. That was like a, and it just being like a much smaller world than maybe people think, but you're 100 % right. Maybe you can get away with this in a larger organization, but a smaller one, like it's going to be discovered. I wouldn't think so.
Martin (1:03:40)
It's
a futile mission. feels like you're most we've talked about a lot. Any any other things on the horizon that you're like excited about in the recruitment world or the people ops space that you want to talk about?
Yiorgos (1:03:55)
Ooh, what am I looking forward to more and more? I do love how many more folks are breaking down barriers to the recruiting process and sharing more insights. Always appreciate someone's hot tip. I think we need to move past the only submit your resume in a PDF. I like, I think we all know that by now.
Martin (1:04:17)
Good.
Yiorgos (1:04:18)
Offer a little bit more insights. Yeah.
Martin (1:04:20)
Thanks, 1991. Appreciate you.
Yiorgos (1:04:25)
I hope that's understood now. But I think there's a really good community of folks and that makes me excited. I am curious if the market picks back up and in the places that we work, if we'll see talent teams being more distinguished from people or HR teams. I think a few years ago when the market was high, that split started to happen. So you would see like heads of talents and heads of people. Now that the market has shrunk and sort of
it's an employer's market, we see those roles combined again,
Martin (1:04:57)
Yeah, maybe.
Yiorgos (1:04:58)
which I don't necessarily think is the strategic move. So curious to see where we level out in that, if things pick back up and sort of what the dynamics look like.
Martin (1:05:10)
Yeah, two very different jobs. Anytime I'm talking to founders or senior leaders at startups that were consulting, they're quite like, typically, we're helping them with their first hire. And, like their first HR recruitment hire. And the question is always like, do we do we look for the unicorn that can do both like HR and recruitment and like, yes, they do exist. But I fundamentally believe that like,
doing a good job of both of those things for a long period of time isn't sustainable. like, you know, the recruiters calendar is often dictated by the meetings that they have with candidates and HRs calendars, often dictated by meetings with internal employees. And, and then when do you have time to do any of the other things that each of those roles requires? It's just so if the question is always like,
Do you do you want someone to come in and do a half ass job of both if you or do you like does it make sense and often I've not really seen a case where it makes sense to just really become obsessed with like, no, we just want one person to do both of these things or one team to do all of these things consolidated. Like it doesn't, I'd be curious to see something other than that. Or, you know, happy to like listen to an argument, you know, opposing it. But yeah, I don't know what, what's your take?
Yiorgos (1:06:37)
No, I agree. I still like, you know, the day when onboarding happens and like the new employees message you and like you've got one week and then you better stop slacking me. It was like, and that's it's a referral. Like you got to wean off of me. And they're like, but we have a relationship. This goes counter to everything I said at the start. It's like, no, no, no. Once we work together, I don't want to talk to you anymore. When you're
Martin (1:06:57)
Yeah.
Yiorgos (1:06:58)
a candidate and then when you're looking for your next job, let's chat. But yeah, there's always the influx of slacks. And I'm like, why are you talking to me? They're like, but.
aren't you? yeah, if I mean, if we're going to finish up, I do have to say like Martin, you, you truly are. I mean, we worked together for such a short period, but fundamentally, I think like, I learned so much, but did shape, I think, an approach to recruitment that I have. So when I hear about the things that matter to you, or sort of like even the things that I credit myself as being like decent at, I do think there is like a foundation learned there. So I'm
I'm always grateful for it. And I say
Martin (1:07:37)
No, thank you.
Yiorgos (1:07:38)
that to the listener. Let me also drop this hot take. Martin was also interviewed for a podcast recently where he was asked a question of who was his best recruiter hire ever. And I was not named. Wait to my shock when I'm sitting out in the garden listening to this podcast and waiting to
Martin (1:07:55)
Oh no! Oh no!
Yiorgos (1:07:58)
hear my name.
Martin (1:07:59)
Woo!
Yiorgos (1:08:00)
even my middle names and being left and dry, so no. It cracked me up.
Martin (1:08:09)
That's all the time we have for today's podcast.
Yiorgos (1:08:18)
I thought it was my time to shine and I didn't get anything. So anyway, needless to say, we've been meeting with the therapist since that podcast dropped. I was waiting
Martin (1:08:26)
Wild, No, no, you know.
Yiorgos (1:08:31)
for you to ask me that question. Who's your favorite manager? And you're like, here's my chance to turn the tables.
Martin (1:08:35)
Yeah, no, it's definitely not me. my god. When
you were very gracious with me because you're like, this little baby managers got his training wheels on and and I enjoyed our time together. I am very lucky to have worked with a ton of super talented recruiters. I don't know that there's many people that I've hired that I feel like was like a mishire or
I didn't learn something from them or they didn't learn something from me. Chingers hard to beat. I'm sorry. And, and, and, and I'll give you some, some context on this is like, I'm defending myself now. I feel, I feel like I have the right to defend myself on this, but
Yiorgos (1:09:18)
I know, I know, I love it, I love it. I was like, I want to that spreadsheet where you broke this down.
Martin (1:09:28)
Basically, when I took the role, had hired, I was doing, I was hiring for the, I was hiring for the team before I actually started at the company. I was like tapping people on the shoulder and whatnot. And, he had, it was a bit of a long shot. So there's like this underdog story to it, which is always nice and fun for me. But,
Basically, what I was told is like, nobody on the team seems to be able to crack more than like two or three hires per per month. And, you know, that's not we're not going to help us hit our goals and definitely not going to help us hit our goals like the the new large goals and the reason we were building out the team. And so he didn't come in saying like, yeah, I'm gonna crush this or anything like that. But like, I've never seen he there was
month after month where he was making anywhere from like eight to 12 placements per month and like technical roles, complicated roles, it's not like, you know, eight or nine account managers and like, he's he's a force to be reckoned with and you know, that's, I think I need to think more about how I recall the people I work with, how I
position them, but he's like, I would love there to be like, like a competition or some like measurable away, but that's a little bit overly ridiculous. yeah.
Yiorgos (1:10:56)
No,
I think you think of it as your own alumni group. So BetaKit had an article, I mean, it's probably, I don't know if it's a year ago, but let's say somewhat recent, where they looked at all the top startups in the Canadian ecosystem and
Martin (1:11:09)
Mm.
Yiorgos (1:11:10)
trying to look for trends. They found that a bunch of them had worked at Uber. That was a common theme amongst these new executive
Martin (1:11:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yiorgos (1:11:15)
teams. And I feel like it would be neat for you to do the same thing. Who are the alumni of folks that you hired and what are they doing now? And I think that you will...
be proud of the group. And I think that we all have a shared experience of having the pleasure of working with you.
Martin (1:11:34)
appreciate you sending it on a much more reasonable note. I
Yiorgos (1:11:39)
Rather than you feeling pressured to be like, my god, I hope you make your ghost angry again.
Martin (1:11:44)
think you'd have the same like you've built some pretty awesome companies yourself since we moved on from from working together. Like of Yeah, nothing but mutual respect your gross and
Yiorgos (1:11:55)
Thank you.
Martin (1:11:57)
less opportunity for me to rise you so it is that's always been the case though. So
Yiorgos (1:12:03)
Yeah,
I remember you to you were like the first person in a workplace setting to when describing like what it was like to work with me the like final bullet was like and sassy. was like, yeah,
Martin (1:12:12)
Yeah
Yiorgos (1:12:13)
I didn't really like think about but if we have a good relationship with one another, it will involve that level of communication. And if it doesn't, then like it means we we don't we don't get on.
Martin (1:12:26)
If anything resonates with folks from this conversation, any final like plugs or do you want folks to reach out to you on LinkedIn and connect specifically for anything or anything like that? What's the best way to get ahold of you if they want to?
Yiorgos (1:12:45)
please always reach out. I love learning from my peers, whether it's just in terms of approach or tools. I think it's like one of my favorite parts of working in our industry. I think we do a good job of helping each other out. So yeah, please be connected.
Martin (1:13:01)
Awesome. And we'll share your details and all the regular places you see on podcasts. so, yeah, your gross. Thanks again for coming on the show. Appreciate it.
Yiorgos (1:13:11)
Thank you, Martin.
Martin (1:13:12)
Awesome. Take care, everyone.
