From A People Perspective

Lorena (01:23)
Yes. Can I call you Marty?

Martin Hauck (01:23)
Lorena. Thanks for doing the podcast.

Yeah, you can call me Marty. Yeah. For those of you that don't know, I've had a crisis of my name ever since I've met Lorena because she wants to call me Marty and now other people call me Marty. And this isn't just Lorena, but I want to switch. I want to switch. I, if I put Marty on my LinkedIn and then everything else, like how many things do I have to change?

Lorena (01:51)
I've changed. just, you know, it's a sign of care for me. was for you to have a nickname. So, and it's stuck.

Martin Hauck (01:57)
This is true. This is true.

It did stick and it caught on like wildfire. Cause so many more people call me Marty because of you, which I appreciate. So thank you. But today is not about me. Today is about you, Lorena Scott, four X chief people officer who started in a completely different space than most chief people officers do. And another fun fact, Lorena and I worked together. It was kind of enough to, she was kind of enough to give me the opportunity to work with her and it was.

Absolutely amazing. so I've been wanting to do this podcast for quite some time. Finally got on your calendar and now we're here. Now we're here to talk about your road to becoming a VP and CPO head of people. Do you know how you got there?

Lorena (02:54)
No, no, I mean, that's a terrible answer. But I would say that if you had asked like, you know, 17 year old Lorena when she was leaving high school to go to university, that I would be in these roles or have these opportunities, I would have said you were crazy. Because I did go to study entrepreneurship and finance and economics. And so this feels like a very different, in some ways, a very different world.

Martin Hauck (02:57)
Yeah

Lorena (03:23)
But I do think that I was super lucky. Like luck always plays a part. I had a lot of folks that would take bets on me and give me these things that I had no business probably owning, doing. And I was always super curious. And so I think the result is I've had a really winding career that has led me to do the thing I really love, which is helping people do the best work of their careers.

Martin Hauck (03:48)
And that's not a, that's a pretty big mission. And so I kind of want to go back to that because the thing that for most of the people listening, getting to where you are is out of reach conceptually. Right. And I think just for anyone starting out in their career or in the middle of their career, especially now in the middle of their career, when, you know, they had a good track and now the economy is doing all this funny stuff. The world's doing all this funny stuff.

And now it feels like getting to where you are and other amazing people leaders are in terms of their career just feels even harder to reach just because there's so many more challenges. And so I think, and I do want to get to that part of the story, but we'd love to just kind of like, to your point, right. If you asked Lorena in high school, what she wanted to do, you wouldn't have necessarily given this answer or come down this path. So maybe take us back to that and then we can kind of.

See how this all makes sense.

Lorena (04:49)
Like what I wanted to do, what 17 year old me wanted to do. I mean, I was really inspired by my dad and he's still a huge, as you know, I I talk about him all the time. He's a big source of my inspiration in terms of like how I treat people, like the career choices I've had. he was very much an entrepreneur and he like fueled, he was super creative and courageous and like just did things because he was curious and wanted to make the world better. Like that's my dad.

Martin Hauck (04:52)
Yeah.

Lorena (05:18)
in a nutshell, and so I just wanted to be him. And so I saw business and studying entrepreneurship, being really analytical and strong in the finance piece of running a business would lead me to be a version of my father. And he was very supportive of that, just really emphasized education. I grew up in, you know,

finished high school in Bogota and my parents sent me to the US and went to Boston for undergrad and grad school. And that was really like them giving me this opportunity and I knew that I needed to make the most of it because it was a big deal to be able to do that for me and for my brother and my sister. So, anyway, that's probably a long way to say I just wanted to be like my dad. know, they have like, I'm old, be like Mike, I wanted to be like Santi, I wanted to be like my dad.

Martin Hauck (06:04)
⁓

Is there a memory that stands out for you when it clicked that you're like, want to be like, I'm sure there's a ton, but is there one in particular that really gave you an appetite for entrepreneurship and business?

Lorena (06:25)
Yes, and I mentioned my dad was sort of a business mind all of his career. It was actually when he was most challenged and in spite of that. So my father had a stroke when I was 17 years old and it really affected his ability to read, do math, speak, write. And so essentially he was forced to retire from a lifelong career as a

and a petroleum engineering oil executive. And most people would kind of stop in that moment and say, I'm done. Like I've had this experience and I can't really operate in the way I used to. Instead, my dad worked his butt off to relearn two languages, English and Spanish.

and figure out a way to reinvent himself through being an entrepreneur in order to still be curious and be fulfilled. And also he had responsibilities for his children. were still needing his support financially. so I think it was that moment of his resilience and just being so, he never gave up and he saw building his own things as a mechanism to still continue to like.

learn, grow, and support hits family.

Martin Hauck (07:47)
That's awesome. Now, like it's...

Lorena (07:50)
You should

interview my dad.

Martin Hauck (07:52)
Maybe, maybe I will.

It's really inspiring to like just to hear through, like when you're 17 and your dad goes through that. And then there's just like this well, as a parent now, like I'm kind of getting emotional about it, but like, you know, going through anything and there's this like well of strength you have for your kids where it's like, I will, you'll do go the extra mile and beyond the extra mile to do.

to do stuff for your kids. And it's just like a really cool side effect of being a parent. It's not easy, that's for sure. But it's a cool side effect. And it's cool that it had that impact on you and only hope that I can have that impact on my girls growing up in some way, shape or form. So that strength and that kind of like resilience leads you into, you're not like, okay, cool, I'm gonna be an HR person now. Just from that moment, you go to Boston, you go to school.

Lorena (08:34)
and

Uh-uh.

Martin Hauck (08:50)
And then what's your first gig? Like your first meaningful, actually, no, what's your first gig that doesn't, that's not like I was a, you know, I was a, I delivered papers in Bogota or whatever. Like what's your first paying job? Like first paycheck, first paycheck.

Lorena (09:04)
My first first job or my first job at university, my first

paycheck, I worked, I spent summers with my aunt and uncle in Connecticut, you probably know this, and they lived on the water. And so there was a place called She Sells Sandwiches. So I worked at She Sells Sandwiches. And I was terrible at like, actually making sandwiches.

Martin Hauck (09:23)
I don't know this.

Lorena (09:32)
And so they put me behind the register. I was great at taking money and counting bills and all of that. So I think very, very on brand for me. So I worked the register at SheSellSandwiches and that was my first paycheck. And then my first job was as a banker. I was an investment banker on Wall Street.

Martin Hauck (09:42)
Yeah

Nice.

Yeah, that's not a story many folks in Canada can say as well. And I think that kind of gives you a massive edge when it comes to like the, not only being a people leader, an executive, but also just in general, right? I'd be curious to know, we're skipping over the middle part, but like that there is something to be said for

you know, life in New York and your experience in roles in New York and how that translates to your career. So I'd be curious to get a sense of how you feel that's impacted you.

Lorena (10:38)
I mean it was...

It was amazing, right? I learned a ton. I mean, took a job, I took the investment banking job coming out of school because I didn't have my idea. I didn't know what I wanted to start. Even though in my heart I was like, someday I'll be an entrepreneur. I didn't know what I was gonna build or do and so was like, I need to go to boot camp.

And like the finance bootcamp is being a banker, an analyst and helping companies go public, helping them acquire other businesses and learning how to live, breathe and excel and understanding the economics of a business, understanding how to raise capital. It's also like a great training ground on communication, right? So you're at a very junior level engaging and supporting CEOs, CFOs, the executive team of these companies.

that you're advising. And so it was great. And I made tremendous friendships. going back to New York next week for work. And I'm going to see a bunch of people that were in my analyst class. like I said, I'm pretty old. I was an analyst a long time ago. And so I learned a ton. And I met really great people. And maybe I'm skipping ahead into some of your questions. But for me, I had a boss who forced the analyst to speak first.

Martin Hauck (11:58)
I don't know.

Lorena (12:03)
Right, like the analysts in a bank is like the most junior person, they're the fresh grads, we're the ones that work the hundred hour weeks and like do everything and anything, some glory work and some very un-glorified work. And his name is Jeff Sein and he said, you know, analysts speak first. We had to have an opinion, we were not just sort of like punching things in and out. He was asking us to have a perspective and to be able to speak up and it was pretty cool.

for a 21 year old me.

Martin Hauck (12:35)
Yeah, no, it's it's nice to have that kind of mentorship and you can't find it anywhere. Did you know right away that this person was going to be like really meaningful in terms of a mentor and a leader or does it more of like a retrospect thing?

Lorena (12:49)
It's more of a retrospect. mean, he was the big boss. He ran what was called the TMT, Telecom Media and Technology Practice. So no, think in retrospect, I didn't even appreciate it at the time. I was like, oh, why do we have to speak? But now I think back and how I operate as a leader and how I've seen other great leaders operate. And I appreciate it now.

Martin Hauck (13:03)
Hmm.

Yeah, it kind of embedded itself.

Lorena (13:18)
Yeah.

Martin Hauck (13:19)
So you go from there and then you spend a bit of time in telecom and media, it sounds like, or I'm skipping ahead. Tell me what's next.

Lorena (13:28)
So I did, I spent three plus years in the tech practice. So I saw kind of the boom and bust. I went from like helping with IPOs to bankruptcies in the early 2000s and then I moved to an investor role. banking was great. I learned a lot. It's also on a personal level really tricky because there were many nights where I slept underneath my desk and I...

Martin Hauck (13:57)
Literally,

like actually.

Lorena (13:58)
Literally, yeah.

No, no, like I literally slept underneath my desk. And, you know, I missed my sister's graduation from NYU. So I was in the same city and I missed it because I was working. And so was like, this is not, this is not right for me longer term. And so I was sort of leverage the experience I had there to go, we call kind of sell side, meaning like more advisory work on the banking side to

Martin Hauck (14:11)
Hmm.

Lorena (14:27)
I was working at a private firm. I had an in consumer branded companies or consumer businesses. I went to work for a private equity firm based out of Chicago that was focused on consumer or mostly consumer lower end of the middle market. Think about privately held companies that were anywhere from $10 million to $20 million in revenue.

I had the opportunity to go learn, be curious about them, and then potentially buy them through this investment firm. So it was like a whole new world, but still very much within finance.

Martin Hauck (15:05)
Hmm. So that gives you a good, really good lens into like how businesses operate more tactically. Cause you're in that position, you're sort of popping the hood on the company and taking a look at every aspect of the business as opposed to like, the, the, the presentation looks great. Let's, let's do it. Like there's a lot more work that goes into it.

Lorena (15:28)
Yeah, I also think it was the first, and this is more of a reflection versus knowing it in the moment, it was the first time I really began to appreciate what it means to have a good leadership team and a good culture, right? Because there are companies that on paper based on the financials and the markets that they served and their growth rates and all that seem like really great investments, but they...

Martin Hauck (15:37)
Mm.

Lorena (15:49)
had really bad leaders. so ultimately, the upside of those companies is capped, or they're not able to kind of pivot and grow. And so I think it was my first real entrance into understanding that the financials or the business metrics need to be there, as well as the people part.

Martin Hauck (16:10)
Yeah. Is the quick sidebar on that, like reflecting back on like literally sleeping at work, not not like the like, OK, where was it? What kind of pillow did you have? Not not like that, but more in terms of like there's God is.

Lorena (16:28)
There is no pillow.

Martin Hauck (16:34)
that was a that was a behavior that was being modeled that you're just like, I guess this is what I have to do in the sense that like it was almost expected. And that's kind of like the hustle and level of dedication employees had at those types of firms back then or

Lorena (16:52)
I would say it was not a love of the work that people demonstrated that level of commitment. mean, I think we were compensated in a way at that for my, like, for what I was, which was a fresh grab in a way that was like, you're gonna, you're basically committed to this place. We're gonna pay you enough to be at our beck and call.

Martin Hauck (17:05)
Hmm.

Lorena (17:13)
is one component. I think me personally, have always, and maybe again, the influence of my dad, like my reputation is everything. And so I wasn't gonna just deliver like work. I was always gonna do my best to go above and beyond. And I think that at times required me to work around the clock. I don't know if that was the right call, Candidly, because you always, you you tend to hit a wall and the quality can be great, whatnot. I did want...

to be one of those that was known for delivering great work. And there was enough work to do that could take all of, know, lots of time, yeah. But I was on stage where my friends were at the work. I didn't have some of the awesome commitments that I have today, like a husband and three kids, so.

Martin Hauck (18:01)
Yeah, when you don't necessarily have a reputation, when you do have the chance to build it for being like a hard worker, then invest in it because it's going to pay off tenfold.

Lorena (18:11)
I wanted to have a good reputation and I also wanted to learn. I think those things have always been important to me, regardless of where I am in my career journey or how many years I've been doing the thing. I've always wanted to learn, learn more.

Martin Hauck (18:28)
And so you went from that space in the investments on the sell side. And then, and how do you find yourself in, in people or how do you find what's, what's next in that step?

Lorena (18:43)
So there was a bunch of steps in between. I went to work for this private equity firm, by the way, best place to work I've ever been at. Best mentor, best boss. Thomas Darden is just an incredible human being, and he taught me everything I know about building a great culture. And it happened in a private equity firm, which is sort of ironic, because it's not what private equity firms are known for. No, no. And I remember from there that

Martin Hauck (19:04)
That's not what you expect from a PE firm, no.

Lorena (19:09)
He and that entire team invested deeply in my career and in me as a human, led me to business school. Business school brought a couple things to me, great friendships, great learning, a husband, and also an opportunity to go back to New York and invest on behalf of Time Warner. And so I went, continued on the investing, but in a corporate environment. Incredible experience.

Martin Hauck (19:24)
you

Lorena (19:39)
And then I had my first child. And that's where I kind of shared that I didn't have my idea for 10 years almost, coming out of university. And then he was born and I got inspired. And so I started my own company. This time we had sort of had our first child. By the time I got inspired with the business, I actually had two children. But I became an entrepreneur.

Martin Hauck (19:48)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Lorena (20:08)
And that was the pivot. So I started a company. It failed. And it took three years of really grinding, giving everything in my heart. I started it six weeks after my second son was born. And then when I shut it down, or the process of winding it down,

I was like, I need a job. I need to pay for all this debt that I've accumulated in having founded this business. And I was going to go back to investing and my heart wasn't there. And my husband said, you're about to sign this employment agreement and you look sad. He was like, don't do that. So I really, you know Sandy, so I'm really grateful for him to say, don't do something that is not going to bring you joy and where you don't think that you're going to have.

Martin Hauck (20:50)
Hmm.

Lorena (21:01)
an incredible, impactful experience. And so I walked into the offices of somebody I knew and said, I don't want to go back to finance. I don't want to start a company on my own. I want to go to a place that's established, has product market fit, and take all the learnings of my failures and help. And so that place, that person was Andy Yang. That place was 500 PX. And he put me in charge of finance, which I knew.

customer support, which I didn't know, operations, legal, and people. It was like, and people. And I was like, but I don't know anything about people. And that was it. And that totally changed my career. started initially when I first took the job. was every day in the financial model. We were doing capital raise. I was in the thing that I knew well.

Martin Hauck (21:40)
like when does people come into play?

Lorena (22:00)
So people was probably like 5 % of my time. By the time I left 500px, had like off, you know, given the model to somebody else and I spent 95 % of my time thinking about people and our strategy and our culture and hiring and retention and all of that. So I just loved it. And I didn't ever think I would candidly. you know, I understood formulas and Excel, but that's how it all happened. That was like the point.

Martin Hauck (22:29)
That's the tipping point where you, where you jump into the world of people. And I have a bunch of people oriented questions, but before we dive into that, it's not a commercial. Don't worry before we die. I'm curious for folks that don't have the chance, right? Cause it's a unique opportunity to go to New York. It's a unique opportunity to start in, you know, the finance world in the investment side. So there's a ton of stuff that you.

Lorena (22:40)
Hahaha

Martin Hauck (22:58)
gained there and skipping ahead at the end of the day, it's like a huge asset as a people leader to understand the business side of the business as opposed to just the people side and the employment law side and all that, all that stuff from your, like, let's say you hire a senior intermediate HRBP on your team and they don't have that experience, but they're awesome. What are you recommending to them to get that experience that you got?

you know, in New York on the investment side so that they like level up quickly and kind of like see the business more holistically. Like what are your what do you have people on your team or what would you have people on your team do?

Lorena (23:38)
I don't think you need to have the Wall Street experience to understand a business, right? That just happened to be my journey. I would say for the team members that I've had the privilege of bringing on and working with.

Martin Hauck (23:47)
Mm-hmm.

Lorena (23:54)
They're all very curious. That is a trait that is important in anyone that I partner with and work with. And so I encourage them to embed themselves in the business. Go deep in how the engineering or it works and their split planning and their challenges and the product roadmap. Similarly, I have a people business partner that had been a people business partner and then she went and became a salesperson. She was an account manager.

understood like how that works and I thought that was an amazing experience and so when she joined to go back to kind of the people world she's now like responsible for the go-to-market teams and and I was like go and embed yourself and like really understand kind of what is the sales cycle what is our you know ICP which is kind of our ideal candidate customer profile like go go understand how relay works and I'm a big part of like

driving and giving that clarity and then go understand how your business is that you are the partner and champion for work. And then we like ask questions. Like I always bring back the the board docs. I go through our financials. I go through our economics. And so I want them to be as knowledgeable as I am. And ideally like more knowledgeable because they're gonna be more, you know, more intimately embedded in the, businesses that they support.

But as like table stakes is like being curious and the second piece is like go spend time with the business. it's, it's you can't be a good partner if you don't understand the business, how it works and the pain points of the people running, you know, different parts of the business.

Martin Hauck (25:35)
I got a two parter for you. How do you test for curiosity when you're hiring people? And then how do you know that they're doing the right things in terms of like getting themselves up to speed? Because it should be kind of like a self starter kind of thing. You shouldn't you shouldn't have to be urging someone to go embed themselves within the business. They should be sort of doing it themselves. So like what are some

Lorena (25:37)
Okay.

Martin Hauck (26:04)
signs that someone's on the right track, that they're doing the right things. So yeah.

Lorena (26:10)
So the first one around how I test, it's just questions in the interview process around like, tell me, like when was the last time you picked up something new and what was it? Like what do you want to get a little bit better on? Right, like innate in like the continuous learning journey is curiosity.

sometimes you can kind of act, you know, ask in a different way as like how do you think about feedback and like how often do you get feedback? Like curious people are constantly asking for feedback. So that's sort of one set of kind of questions that I like to ask to get to that. But I do think that curious people are also really great storytellers by like, hey, I just read this book, I just did this thing. They tend to be really courageous, like gosh, I never did this before and now I kind of picked it up and...

Martin Hauck (26:57)
Mmm.

Lorena (27:04)
know, separately around like how do I know team members are doing that work on their own independently? I think it's based on the relationships that they're building. So for example, if someone is really doing the work to get to know the business, then they've really bridged some strong relationships as a result. And so if I start to hear about, you know, I don't want to name names, so just like, you know.

Person one is, you know, I really value the opinion or dropped in and, you you just start to hear their name more often with the teams that they support. And then they start, they stop coming to me because they know that this person actually has more better answers because they're more embedded. And so it's like, it's like, what are people saying? And also did they stop coming to me? And to me, that's like the ultimate, ultimate stamp of approval is like, we no longer need you.

You're no good to us because this person is far better. And I love

Martin Hauck (28:05)
Good. That's good. So back to your journey. This is fourth time in an executive position in people ops. go from a few different companies. I don't know if there's any stories that stick out to you from some of your experiences or if you wanted to touch on any of them, but, ⁓ yeah, I to just get a sense of, you know, the, in-between phase before we focus on what you're up to now.

Lorena (28:27)
There's been a lot of in between.

So I went from 500px, which I mentioned was sort of the turning point for me of working for, out of venture backed, of started as a 50 person, got as big as 200 and then downsized photographer marketplace, learned how to take photos and compose a photo, bought my first DSLR as a result, awesome. It's like a very creative place. From there, kind of the...

The challenge I faced was I was stretched pretty thin in terms of owning everything from finance to people, but I didn't really go very deep in any of those areas. there was a lot of context between, and I decided that I really wanted to go deep in people because it is where I was gravitating. And so I got the opportunity to join a startup in Toronto called Ritual.

At time it was 40 folks, depending on how you like wanna sum up the total size of the team, of at our biggest, but we were 800, COVID hit, massive restructuring let go. And I was part of that crazy scale up and then opening up it from five markets to 55 markets. No markets, it was like a city. So we...

Martin Hauck (29:49)
That's like countries or like Geos. Yeah.

Lorena (29:57)
In the time that I was there, we went from sort of a few markets in the US and Toronto to Hong Kong opening, London, Berlin. So it just, you know, explosive growth and then the unfortunate impact of COVID on a marketplace that served kind of lunch in downtown cores. just didn't thrive in COVID obviously and so a big

Martin Hauck (30:21)
Yeah.

Lorena (30:26)
a big reduction in force, then went to, I think on the heels of that experience and really kind of went to a place called Caseware, which is where you and I got to work together. Because I wanted to work at a place that was more established, less risk, profitable, and ran people there as well. What was really interesting about Caseware, as you know, is that it was global.

and it was highly acquisitive. So I felt like it combined, know, a desire to go outside of North, continue to work outside of North America, understand kind of the, how you build a great culture when you have such a distributed workforce and with so many different cultures and also that M &A component of like, what does it take to ingest a company? What are the mechanics of that? How do you evaluate from a people perspective? So it was really fun. And then I went to work for,

Martin Hauck (30:54)
Hmm.

Lorena (31:23)
a company called Algolia, which was also quite global, but had been headquartered in France, and I had never done France as a people market. I learned a lot. And then I ended up at Relay. And I will say that not that you're supposed to have favorites, but Relay has been kind of just, I'm having the time of my life. I feel so, so grateful. And it is also unexpected, by the way. When I was approached about this opportunity, I was like, no, thank you.

And here I am. Yeah. Maybe that's the theme. The more I resist, the more like joy I'll find.

Martin Hauck (31:53)
Yeah. Yeah. There's a.

The there's a you mentioned something in that in terms of like &A's and case where was my first experience of sort of like the &A culture where like actually no, I did a little bit we we we had a little bit of that at coin square but not in the more like not in the same way and I guess the the thought that I have and

this is something you have experienced on the investment side, like not something you were unfamiliar with. So for me, it was very like completely new and I didn't know what I was doing. And you were very gracious to like give me the opportunity to kind of like figure out where we're going to hire, you know, engineers in the world, essentially apart from if we can't do it in Toronto in the U S where are we going to do it in the world? And that was really awesome, interesting problem to solve. And it's really grateful for the opportunity to solve it. But you did seen that done so many times with,

ritual opening up in so many markets and all the other places that you've spent time in. guess the, is my bias. so is that like and A's are hard in the sense that you've got like company A and company B and they have completely different cultures. One's bigger than the other. It's like a fish swallowing another fish. And then the people inside, I guess that's a really hard thing for anyone in people ops to go through. if

You're not necessarily an executive and you're sort of in the middle there or for even just like senior leader, but not at the executive table. ⁓ what are some truths that you've found in all the times you've experienced that and seen that, that, that will help a person get navigate that sort of experience.

Lorena (33:49)
Yeah, guess a couple things I'll clarify. CACER was my first being on the operating side and acquiring a lot of businesses because even with Ritual, for example, we didn't acquire businesses. We went to markets and we...

Martin Hauck (34:03)
Hmm.

Lorena (34:03)
and hired talent through Ritual, didn't buy businesses for our expansion. So that was a first around sort of like literally being highly acquisitive. That was like the primary way that case where it was growing. And so it was not only like important, it was like mission critical to be able to like acquire businesses as regularly as it has been over the last few years.

Martin Hauck (34:09)
True. Yeah.

Lorena (34:32)
And I would say that I don't think caseware is a great example, per se. I think if you can be thoughtful about finding cultures that are very deeply in line, then the integration and the success of the combined entity is...

much more likely, right? Otherwise, it might even be better to acquire the business but allow them to operate independently because the combination of those folks doesn't lead to really a great work environment and therefore the ability to thrive. So on the assumption that the cultures are deeply aligned and one plus one is three for being cheesy.

And I think it's like, and again, I don't wanna be cheesy, but it's like, curious, like go to your counterpart and this other one, like what has worked well? What have you, you know, what have you learned? Like there's, as humans, we have a ton of blind spots because we get into our habits. And I think the beauty of like a different company or different organization is like different ways of working and like learnings that you can kind of, you know, take.

Martin Hauck (35:38)
Hmm.

Lorena (35:47)
without having had all those failures or having had all those moments. so, you know, is my bias, has been my bias, like to really understand the company, the people that you're acquiring and to ask a lot of questions about like what were the lessons they learned. And I think at different levels you'll get different responses. But I remember for KCRA the first company we bought was in Houston. I traveled.

there to meet the team and share the news. And I spent a full day just telling them, tell me about how you work, and tell me about what makes this place special. I think those level of questions hopefully made for a better experience for that group coming in. And also, I learned a ton and took things back that we could ideally incorporate at the corporate or global level.

Martin Hauck (36:39)
Yeah. And so it sounds like when you when when they were going through that it wasn't just okay, the heads of each business are meeting with each other, they shake hands, it was more intentional in the sense that you not only are connecting with the executives, which are connecting with everyone at the organization and sort of like giving everyone a chance to like meet the new partner, essentially, meet the family.

Lorena (37:06)
So I

would say for the time that I was there, that was my strategy. The decision to acquire a business was very much held at the executive level. So we didn't really involve other folks. But once you make the decision and you go through the diligence and you actually do the deal, then going to those locations and building trust early on and getting to know the people.

Martin Hauck (37:12)
Mm.

Lorena (37:34)
like doing, saying what you're like really showing up versus words, was important. At least it was important to me. I don't know the playbook after that, but it was important to me.

Martin Hauck (37:40)
Hmm.

So you talked about how like this is you taught me an expression like fills your cup. I love that expression. I use that all the time. And it sounds like you know, relay and what you're doing now with your team and what relay is doing is really filling your cup. What stands out for you in terms of like, why is it that?

Lorena (38:10)
There's so many, so many reasons. I think it always starts with the people, as trite as that may sound. And so I feel very fortunate to be working with an incredible team that I got to build and like sort of, you know, on both sides, I'm responsible for both people as well as customer experience here at Relay. And so I've really helped.

put my thumbprint and finding these remarkable people and developing remarkable people and letting them be extraordinary every day. I just like, you I tried to recruit you, you said no to me, but I will put that aside. Yeah, like I just feel like really grateful to work with hardworking, humble, driven, passionate folks that make me better and challenge me to be better.

I love that we're serving small businesses. Like I talked about my dad, he was an entrepreneur, my brother an architect. Like I think of them in the product and the experience that we, how we show up for these SMBs. so, I've been at places where I can't really connect to the mission and that makes a big difference in terms of the...

Martin Hauck (39:26)
Mm.

Lorena (39:30)
the passion for the work. And this is not work for me. This is just like, is, this, does fill my cup every day. It's hard. I'm not saying it's not hard, but I find joy in, in, in, in what I do. And, and I think the third piece honestly is like the diversity of the role. So I think of myself as someone who cares a lot about experiences and

Today every day I'm thinking about how we show up for our internal customers our team and the experience that we design for them from the moment You they're from a candidate to kind of their their goodbye right and everything in between and then I also think deeply about the experience of our customers our small business owners in the US and you know, they're Many of them like the big banks don't care about and like how do we how do we have a voice and a level of care and empathy that?

really sets us apart and where are we in those moments that matter to them in their kind of journey to help them not just survive but thrive. That's a big meaty mandate and so I just, I love that I'm learning and I'm doing and all that. You know me, all that good stuff.

Martin Hauck (40:40)
Yeah,

no, that's that's, that's really good to hear. And I mean, you're doing, you know, you and everybody I realize doing important work, I'm biased as an entrepreneur myself, in the sense that like, yeah, the big banks don't care about don't care about the small, you know, onesie twosies. It's it's kind of shameful, to be honest with you, like given where, you know, even just with the talks that are going on right now, it's kind of shameful in sense that like,

countries should support their entrepreneurs more, but instead most of the times there's just all these hurdles and it's just like, even just the simplest things, like I've got a limit on my bank account on how much I can e-transfer like partners and vendors. And it's just like, have to spend, I don't have 45 minutes to spend on the phone to get a limit increased. And it's just simple thing. it's,

thousands of those things every day and as an entrepreneur it's like if it's not actually driving revenue and growth and awareness then then then what's the point right you don't have time for

Lorena (41:48)
Yeah, I think that's the nugget for us is that we know that as a business owner, you are stretched really thin. so like, this is not the thing that's going to help your business grow or help you pay your team. Right. And so it's, yeah, we want to make it want to make it easier.

Martin Hauck (42:09)
I imagine by now you've got most of the foundational stuff sorted, right? You've been at Relay for a bit now and you've got your team and the dream team. But what's kind of what are you thinking about? Like what what are you working on now? Like what's the what's the problem you're trying to tackle now on the people side?

Lorena (42:17)
Yeah. A dream team.

Scaling right I think that The practices that we've had from 0 to 100 as we go from Really 200 to 500 team members and a much bigger Revenue like much bigger big business from a revenue and a customer as well as like a product portfolio perspective like the complexity of relay is really amplified since I joined I was sort of kind of in the 50s and we've

Forexed and sized and we're gonna continue to grow at that pace. So it's like, how do you preserve the magic of relay from a cultural perspective and the values as we continue to really add more people, talented people. And I sort of tackled that with ritual, but I feel like the journey was unfinished. And so I'm excited to take

Martin Hauck (43:31)
Hmm.

Lorena (43:33)
the learnings from that experience do things different. So there was some wins and some not wins or some failures. And so learn from those, do it differently. But it is to maintain the magic. And that's what people often say is like, oh, once you get to 500, it's not the same. I'm like, why does it have to be that way? It doesn't. What needs to be true now so that?

Martin Hauck (43:53)
Mm-hmm.

Lorena (43:58)
by the time we are that size, people can say, relay never lost its magic. It never lost its eye for talent, it never stopped investing in its people, it never stopped developing great, incredible folks to do great, the best work of their career. And I say that every day and I'm sure people are annoyed by it, but it is what drives me and when I wake up, I'm like, what are we gonna do differently today to make sure that that's true?

Martin Hauck (44:14)
You

What's the tangible way that, you know, I imagine, you know, there is an aspect of having to like have that drum beat of like, this is how we're thinking about this we want, but how do you embed that within the culture? How do you empower your teams to think in the same way?

Lorena (44:43)
I think it's really important to hire people that align with that because it's hard work. The team that I'm a part of, we all put in an incredible amount of time, energy and care to create that foundation, to deliver the programs that should enable that. So I think if that isn't important to you, if this is just a job, we're not that place. I think we're...

I want to do more to empower the team is like provide a lot of contacts work collaborate on like roadmaps. I I, run the people team, like a product org, right? We're, we're experimenting or running in sprints. have a roadmap, that's broken down into quarters and success is not like the project is done. It's metrics that we want to move. And I think that allows folks to feel very empowered to make trade-offs, to make different decisions. And like, if this isn't working, but this is the end goal.

How do we pivot? So hopefully I'm creating like a mechanism or infrastructure. I'm hiring people that operate in that way, that care about those things, and then I'm giving them the infrastructure to go and do that. We'll see.

Martin Hauck (45:55)
Cool. I guess now, few more questions and thanks. Thanks again for your time. ⁓ this has been awesome. ⁓ I think it's a really cool, like peek behind the curtain in terms of like not only your career, but just like the diversity of experiences you can have leading up to this. So it's really, really cool. And I think a lot of times people think in very linear terms in terms of a career, like

did this, I did this and a you know, one plus one equals two and that's it you can't, it can never equal three. In terms of like what you're what you're focused on for the future, like that you've got this scaling part, what what are you keeping an eye on in terms of just the people and culture side of things from like a future perspective, and I hate to bring it up.

but it's something everybody's talking about and it's on everybody's minds. I'm curious to get your take on AI's impact to all of this and what you're thinking, how you're thinking about it.

Lorena (47:06)
I mean, I am laughing because you know me very well. And so, know, I'm not a technology first person. I mean, even scrambled trying to figure out how to get onto this. But I don't, I'm not, I think being resistant to something as powerful and as like AI would be silly. So I think I, for example, I use chat GPT every day in my work, like full stop.

Martin Hauck (47:17)
Haha.

Lorena (47:36)
Right. And because one of the things that I want to get better at is communication, especially written communication. And so I'll literally like have my email that I want to send or Slack message. I'm like, write it better, but with my tone. That's my prompt. And so that's a silly example. But I think I am curious. I'm learning through others that I know. I'm experimenting with AI.

I think it can be incredibly powerful to become more efficient in the areas that aren't necessarily value add.

rather write a thoughtful note more quickly and spend more time whiteboarding and iterating with my team, or even having a one-on-one to coach and support someone who needs that time. And so I think there is ways for all of us to leverage even how we translate the data or how we communicate so that the human brain can go focus in more impactful areas. And I think that's.

you know, as one example of like how I think it could be for good. But I am kind of a half glass full type person. So I see all the ways it can help people leaders and people team members be more efficient to focus in the areas where they can drive greater impact. Not necessarily thinking about like the negatives and maybe I should, but that's just sort of where we're at.

Martin Hauck (49:05)
Nope, that's fair. One, I guess from a strategic perspective, are you more interested for your team to come up with their own solutions that involve AI or are you, are you leaning more towards the industry and the, you know, the HR and recruitment and operations tools out there adopting AI. And then once they've figured out how to adopt it properly, that's when you'll

you'll push your teams to say, okay, you know, this, you know, this applicant tracking system is using AI in this way. Are you using it and encouraging them or is it, so it's sort of like more of a question, like, is it more of a wait and see and wait for, you know, the service providers to figure it out? Or is there like an aspect or initiative where you're saying, no, we're not going to wait for, you know, the software that we use to figure out AI, we're going to, we're going to seek it out ourselves in some way, or form.

Lorena (50:04)
I don't think it's where the other, I think it's an and.

Right. We're constantly evaluating our tech stack from a people perspective, like what are the right tools and systems that will help us do great work and more efficiently. And also, I think we have a really great team that's super curious, it's like exploring as well. I almost feel like it's a combination. I don't subscribe to the wait and see piece. And so I'm hoping that we can carve out time. And this is something we've

Martin Hauck (50:07)
Okay.

Lorena (50:37)
as a team is like, we have hackathons just within the people team and go and like play around with stuff and like, you know, find solutions in our workflow or on the talent acquisitions side. And there's like a bunch of, you know, a of things that they're thinking through. So I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's actually both.

Martin Hauck (50:55)
Yeah, it's an and. Okay, cool. What's...

Lorena (50:58)
Which is probably,

I don't know if that makes it a non-answer to your question, but.

Martin Hauck (51:02)
was very diplomatic. know,

it makes sense. It's just like you're throwing your executive skills around. No, no, no, it's helpful. It's both. It is both. And people have answered that differently. Like some people are like, no, we're all in and we got to do it ourselves. Other people like we're to wait for other people. So I like the balanced approach to it. And that's kind of good. Yeah.

Lorena (51:24)
Yeah, I don't want to say no, don't be curious, but I

think people are quite time constrained as it is. So it's hard unless we're intentional to carve out that time.

Martin Hauck (51:35)
That's fair. What's one thing that you've

started believing was true in terms of people ops and leading people. That you believed early on in your career that's remained true is just like a solid bet and you've doubled down on it and that you're still believed to this day.

Lorena (52:03)
To slow down in hiring. I think there is a lot of pressure from many of the orgs that I've been a part of to hire fast and fire fast. And there's one place that it was really high bar, epically slow. We'd miss milestones because

we were always waiting for that exceptional person and it was always worth the wait. And both from a business impact perspective, but like even more so from like a culture perspective. And so.

Martin Hauck (52:36)
Hmm.

Lorena (52:47)
I look at the commitment that people need to make when they say yes to relay or to any, or kind of in our, you know, at our size and stage and like pace and it's a big one. And so when somebody's making that level of commitment to you, you kind of like have a really high degree of confidence that you're gonna be able to meet that level of commitment to them as well. so, yeah, I just, I...

I will always take my time. And I know that there's a lot of pressure, whether it's a board, whether it's hiring managers, a CEO, a finance leader, whomever it is. But at the end of the day, if you're thoughtful about your hiring process and you believe in it, I think sticking to your guns and making sure you find the right people, even if it takes longer, always is better.

Martin Hauck (53:38)
That's always cool. What's one thing you believed early on and you employed as a tactic early on and then you're like, nope, this is the wrong way to do it. don't believe like you've, believed it really strongly at first, but now you've changed, you know, maybe a 180, maybe a can 360 doesn't make sense, but you've done a 180 on it.

Lorena (54:01)
That's a great question. There's so many things that I have, so many things. I don't know if this will be a bad answer or not, but it's the first thing that comes to mind. think...

early in my people journey, I was very much a micromanager, so maybe it's more of a reflection on how I led, but the best work has genuinely come out when it's, haven't really, I've sort of kind of set the context, but not necessarily been deeply embedded in the actual body of work.

Martin Hauck (54:43)
Hmm.

Lorena (54:44)
And so it's more a reflection on how I work and how I lead in answering your question that I think I always, because I start off my career very much as not a people leader, I didn't manage anyone until I went to 500 PX, truly. My startup was very small and my dad was one of my employees, so not really a people leader. So.

I think like how I lead and how I enable great work to happen, my mindset was very much like I had to be very deeply ingrained in order for it to be excellent. And that's probably ego. I don't know what that is. That's just, you know, and I definitely do not believe that anymore. You know, I think there's different ways of like executing programs that has evolved, but that's quite tactical. So, but every day I'm like reevaluating my thinking and things.

Martin Hauck (55:17)
Hmm.

How'd you change that behavior once you realized it wasn't serving you?

Lorena (55:43)
I had a really great coach. And that's one I really believe in coaching and as a talent enablement practice. And I had someone give me advice on like write down how you work as a manager today. And like it should be changing every three months if your business is scaling. And so like just that habit or that like.

administrative tasks, like, I'm doing the same thing. I'm operating it the same way. That doesn't work. And I think the third one is like hard lessons. Like people come up to me and be like, I'm not learning. I'm not growing or like you're not letting me do the thing I came to do. And this is uninspiring. It's like, that's the biggest. Somebody telling you like, you suck as a leader. Is that you start changing how you operate? Because that's not.

Martin Hauck (56:15)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Lorena (56:41)
That's not how I want to show up for people. It's never been how I want to show up for people. So if people are kind enough to tell me and be courageous enough to tell me, you know, that wasn't great, the least I can do is like own it and do differently or do better.

Martin Hauck (56:56)
Yeah.

Any final thoughts for the folks listening that are inspired by your journey? And I'm sure they are.

Lorena (57:04)
I don't know. You asked me, where it says on the mic, hard for somebody to see themselves out this far. I never went out this far. I was very short-term focused. It was like, how do I get to New York and live in the city of magic? And so I got a job that let me do it.

Martin Hauck (57:14)
Hmm.

Lorena (57:27)
But then from that moment, it was always like, how can I do great work at this place? And I think the result of, and maybe this is bad advice, but of being focused in the present moment and having impact in the present led me to each of my different opportunities that got me to this place, right? I was never like, I'm going to be the CEO of a company.

Martin Hauck (57:54)
Hmm.

Lorena (57:54)
It was more

of like, can I be great right now and really learn? And that's what took me to the places I've been. maybe it's like short term is okay. Like fill your cup every day, learn a lot and drive towards like impact. And I think then you'll have a career of a lifetime wherever it takes you.

Martin Hauck (58:17)
Amazing, amazing advice, Lorena. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today. That was I learned I learned some stories I didn't know the sandwich was the name of the sandwich shop. She sells so were you like in the store?

Lorena (58:20)
This is so funny.

She sells sandwiches, my gosh.

Yeah, was, yes, yes.

Martin Hauck (58:35)
So would people walk

in and be like, hey, she sells sandwiches. Did anybody do that?

Lorena (58:38)
Well, it was

owned by a woman and she was the she. And I mean, like the first time my aunt and uncle came in, I like brought them to the food, the food, which it was not like a table service. And then I like, it was a Philly cheesesteak and I took some meat off of my aunt's sandwich to taste it. And so the customers were like, this woman like brings over the food and she eats off of the customers. And my aunt was like, she's with us. I was not good at my job. I was.

Martin Hauck (58:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lorena (59:08)
That's why they put me on register. I couldn't make sandwiches. Clearly couldn't, you know, bus tables. was...

Martin Hauck (59:16)
But now, now you lead experience for both the customer and people. So kudos to you. You've come a long way. Thank you so much for your time.

Lorena (59:23)
Thanks, Marty. It's good to see you. This is fun. Okay. right. Am I supposed to just hit leave?

Martin Hauck (59:27)
All right.