Recruiting Marketers with Sarah Brekelmans, Founder and Principal Recruiter @ Brightly
Alright. What's going on, people people? I'm Martin Hawke, your host of this podcast from a people perspective. It's a podcast about fascinating people, the stories of how they got to where they are, and a glimpse of where they're going, all from the lens of people operations. Before we dive in, we gotta thank our sponsors that not only help make this podcast possible, but they also support the People People Group.
Martin Hauck:And for the last 7 years, we've been running, the People People Group and grown it to become North America's most engaged HR recruitment and operations community. We're dedicated to sharing best practices, elevating each other, and collectively improving the employee and candidate experience for everyone. We host regular events, socials, webinars. We provide resources, and we're doing some pretty cool stuff in 2024 that, you should keep an eye out for. So because of these awesome sponsors, membership is free.
Martin Hauck:So if you're interested in joining 45100 other people ops professionals, head over to the people people group.com and apply to become a member. If you're interested in supporting or sponsoring the community, feel free to reach out. If you can't find me, then your Internet is broken. If you're a startup with a leadership or executive role and you need it filled by pros, look no further than the leadership agency. They're an award winning recruiting for startups in Canada, the US, and the UK.
Martin Hauck:Jamie Elizabeth and their whole team have been OG supporters of us, and I've experienced the difference of working with them over other agencies and have used them numerous times on tricky searches. If you need a boost to the day to day at your company, and on top of that, you have the delightful challenge of figuring out how to have an engaged hybrid workplace, check out Wavy. They've cracked the code on fun, engaging hybrid events so you don't have to. Check out join wavy.com after the pock podcast. Not right now.
Martin Hauck:We gotta focus, and learn more about them. We've also got chocolate soup. They're the coolest employee recognition program provider ever, and your employee recognition scores will go up if you engage with them. How could you not with customized Lego figurines for all your employees with bricks that come and arrive at their doorstep during their milestones within your organizations. Really interesting concept.
Martin Hauck:Check out chocolatesoup.ca. We've only got a few more folks, so keep listening. Singer Steinberg, group benefit specialist. If you're in the Slack community, just tag Adam Singer if you have a question about benefits for your employees. He's the most patient and helpful person I know.
Martin Hauck:And on top of that, he's mister referrals. If he doesn't have the answer for you, we can't provide you what you need. He will help you. He will introduce you to someone who can. I've gotten a few referrals from him and they've become key partners for me in in both the People People Group and the fractional consulting that I do.
Martin Hauck:Spring Law, check them out. Virtual support for largest and smallest employment law issues. If you're in the Slack community as well, just look up the Ask Legal channel, and you'll see a bunch of people from the community asking legal questions and receiving answers from folks at Spring Law. Finally, I mentioned it, but I'm a fractional recruitment and HR consultant along with my business partner, Monica Sarkar. We just spun up the consulting business about a year and a half ago.
Martin Hauck:And, yeah, if you need any interim support on the fractional recruitment or HR side, feel free to reach out to myself as well. And we're also gonna give you a reason to reach out to Sarah. You're gonna have a million reasons to reach out to Sarah as well. She is our guest today, Sarah Brekelmans. Welcome to the podcast.
Sarah Brekelmans:Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Martin Hauck:So you are the owner operator founder of Brightly.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yes. Mighty team of 1.
Martin Hauck:Mighty team of 1. And, diving into, all the things about your past and history is is exciting. I think it's taken like what I we just mentioned it before the podcast started, but, like, a year for us to, like, figure out how we can connect and and and do this. We've been
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah.
Martin Hauck:We've known each other through the industry hallways for for quite some time, but we've never really stopped to to talk and figure out, like, hey. What is it that you do? So I'm really excited to to chat with you today. Before we dive into all the the nitty gritty business stuff, let's let's learn a bit more about you. You have Enterprise Rent A Car as your first gig
Sarah Brekelmans:Yes.
Martin Hauck:On LinkedIn. And I have so many things to say about that, but, is that really your first gig, or what was your first paid gig?
Sarah Brekelmans:My first paid gig was at Great Canadian Bagel. So I used to serve a lot of bagels.
Martin Hauck:Amazing. I love that. Are they still around?
Sarah Brekelmans:There's, like I'm from London, Ontario. So I think there's one there, but I have yet to see one in Toronto. But I'm sure there is, but I haven't seen them. So they might be gone.
Martin Hauck:There was one in Guelph. I loved it. The, the chocolate chip.
Sarah Brekelmans:Oh, yeah.
Martin Hauck:Double toasted with butter was like my go to, Yeah. Probably didn't help with any of, like, the nutritional, like, needs I had as a teenager, but, like, that was that was my jam. I loved great Canadian. My dad loved great Canadian bagel. That's I am sad that there's not more of them.
Martin Hauck:I just like yeah. You've taken me back there. That's cool. Yeah. What did you learn there?
Martin Hauck:Like, what what did you, you know, beside, like, all the bagel lore you could imagine? Like, what were your takeaways? What lessons did you learn from them?
Sarah Brekelmans:Actually, a lot. I had I had a boss that I would define as a little bit scary and aggressive. Mhmm. And just made it seem like he didn't like anyone. But then I really learned that, you know, if I push back, he might to see how he might respond differently, and he did.
Sarah Brekelmans:He ended up, like, loving me. He's given my mom still goes there, and he always asks about me. He still owns the shop. And I think the biggest thing I learned is, like, when you have an opinion, say it. Like, say it in a in a appropriate way.
Sarah Brekelmans:Probably learned that over the past 20 years how to better communicate my opinions. But if you think something, like, speak up. Manage up. You know, don't hold back. Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:He ended up being an incredible mentor for me, like, going into high school and college. And, but, yeah, in the beginning, he was incredibly frightening.
Martin Hauck:Okay. I I love the I was worried. I was worried for a second. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a sad story.
Sarah Brekelmans:No. I don't
Martin Hauck:know. But you turned it around. Like, I'm so happy to hear that. And, like, also, like, leadership training. Forget about it.
Martin Hauck:Just go go get a gig at the Great Canadian Bagel for a little bit. Work at so and so shop. And, yeah, I guess you gotta cross your fingers on Yeah. Who you get as a boss. That's probably it was the individual less about the bagels.
Martin Hauck:Right?
Sarah Brekelmans:Correct. Yeah. Although they were good bagels. So yeah.
Martin Hauck:Nice. Nice.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. Alright. I got
Martin Hauck:a few albums behind me. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Sarah Brekelmans:Nope. Oh, I was just gonna say my other gig, from that was working in construction, for my family's business. I was a flag girl. So if you ever, you know, going through a street that has construction happening, I'm the one I was the one with the stop sign. So that was that was interesting.
Martin Hauck:Okay. Nice. The, the the thing that comes to my mind is there's this weird I don't know. I'm this is probably just highlighting my neurosis, but I get really steamed when people, like, pass you on the highway and they don't just, like, do the hand raise thing or some form of, like, I see you. I hear you.
Martin Hauck:I appreciate the kindness that you have afforded me on the road. And, what I always found really interesting is, like, people holding flags on construction sites or in a construction area. Some of them were just like you could just like like, it's a tough gig, I imagine, to just stand out there and just, like, that's the thing. Your sole purpose is to be a stoplight essentially. And, some of them were super creative.
Martin Hauck:Like, I remember one trip from BC to Toronto, and there was, like, a flag person who was just, like, super animated, making everything fun. Like, I was a little kid in the back seat, and it was just like, you're making the best of this.
Sarah Brekelmans:That's great. That's great.
Martin Hauck:So I guess my question to you is, yeah, what was what was your what type of flag person were you?
Sarah Brekelmans:I'm not gonna lie. It was not a good one. I was the one that got really bored, and I'm like, oh, wait. Oh oh, they can go? Oh, yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:Sure. Oh. Oh, dear. Needless to say, I did not go in the direction of the construction industry. Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:But, Yeah. I, I, I wouldn't say I, that was not my favorite job. I will say that.
Martin Hauck:No. No. And, you know, you've you've you've gone through some iterations in your career, and we'll talk about that in a second. You've got a 0 calorie pass for the day. Maybe it's bagels.
Martin Hauck:I don't know. What are you what are you munching on?
Sarah Brekelmans:Probably pizza. I could eat pizza. If I could, I could eat a breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, which is why I never have pizza in my house. But
Martin Hauck:That's true.
Sarah Brekelmans:If it was 0 calories, a 100% pizza for sure.
Martin Hauck:Let's get specific. Okay. What pizza joint what are we getting on the ZAH?
Sarah Brekelmans:So we've actually made a habit of or a tradition, whatever you wanna call it. On fries, we actually make our own pizza. So we don't make the dough. So yeah. I won't I won't say that.
Sarah Brekelmans:We get it from a local Italian shop. But I'm big on pesto pizza. I love ground sausage on pizza. Okay. And sorry.
Sarah Brekelmans:You asked me where I get it from. My bad. If I No. No. No.
Sarah Brekelmans:I'm going deeper.
Martin Hauck:This is how serious the pizza the pizza goes. Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:It's true. Gusto 101 in Toronto, some of my favorite pizza. Or any anything that's like a wood fire oven, basically.
Martin Hauck:Wood fire? Okay. Alright. Our household is like a Domino's household at the moment. We do have descendants pizza, which is like the deep dish, which I'm a huge if I could get deep dish every day, I probably would.
Martin Hauck:I think that's I don't know what my answer to that is. I'll have to go on another podcast one day and figure that out.
Sarah Brekelmans:I've never met a pizza I don't like. So I'm yeah.
Martin Hauck:Yeah. Yeah. Better. You have to you don't have to be as, critical with, pizza as you have to be with candidates and people. Right?
Martin Hauck:So
Sarah Brekelmans:Yep. Yeah.
Martin Hauck:There's no there's no filter. Everybody you get the job. You get the job.
Sarah Brekelmans:You get the job. I wish. I wish.
Martin Hauck:And finally, pretend you can only ever listen to 1 album for the rest of time. Which one do you choose and why?
Sarah Brekelmans:Fleetwood Mac, Rumors, for sure.
Martin Hauck:Okay.
Sarah Brekelmans:It's weird. It's just always an album that stuck with me. Like, grew up with it, took it with me, going on. And then we got a record player. I think I play it, like, once a week to or maybe more, making dinner.
Sarah Brekelmans:It's just like a nostalgic gray album. Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Nice. Nice. That is a that is a clutch album for for them. There's, like, a whole documentary on the the making of the album too. Like, it's a it's a thing.
Martin Hauck:It's a
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah.
Martin Hauck:It's a it was a production, to say the least. Mhmm. What songs I I'm terrible with, like, albums and but, like, what are what songs are on that one? Like, all the all their crazy hits. Right?
Martin Hauck:Like Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:Go Your Own Way
Martin Hauck:Yes.
Sarah Brekelmans:When, Dreams I don't know all their names. So I just put the album on, and it just just goes.
Martin Hauck:You listen. Yeah. All the songs. I don't I'd ironically, I don't have a record player. I'm getting one, but I'm just like, I need something for the background for video calls.
Martin Hauck:Like, this work from home thing is, like, is gonna be here for a bit. So I'm gonna I'm gonna spruce it up a bit. Thank you. But, like, yeah, the it I was looking, like, I was handling them because I'm, like, I can't play these, but I was looking, I'm, like, they don't, like, music just doesn't I miss this part of music. Like, even even CDs.
Martin Hauck:Right? Because I'm a little bit more that's, like, closer to the Like, I don't know about tapes. Like, I I grew up with tapes, but, the albums are just like that's an art piece. Like, that's, you know, the there's the end the lyrics, whatever they do there, the creative thing. Like, there's a whole thing, and now it's just like, oh, it's on Spotify.
Martin Hauck:We launched. Here's a picture of us. Blah blah blah. Like, I don't know. I feel like we're losing something.
Martin Hauck:I feel
Sarah Brekelmans:like people are going back. I mean, at least we did. Like, I didn't have a record player ever. And then we got one about a year ago. And, yeah, I don't know.
Sarah Brekelmans:It's just something different about it.
Martin Hauck:A 100%. Are we gonna go back to cell phones one day? Who knows? Who knows? Right?
Martin Hauck:Whatever. Okay. Let's dive in. You just, you just finished listening to to Rumors, and you're heading heading to to work at enterprise. You did the manager and training course as a recruiter, who came up through the agency world.
Martin Hauck:Like, I just seeing that green logo on your profile means, like, I gotta talk to Sarah because it's their training is next level. Like, the quality of people that come out of there is just like every every other b to b recruiter that I've worked with is just like people from the car industry, enterprise, and, like, there's better ones. But, like, enterprise was like, if you went to enterprise, you were going places, and you clearly have. But I'm curious to to hear what your take on that perception is.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. So it's interesting. Enterprise led to, like, you probably guess, to a lot of different things in my career. I left it and then went back, but, yeah, it'll it'll hopefully all make sense. But I started at enterprise through an internship during university.
Sarah Brekelmans:I was in a business program, and it was, to be quite frank, the only reason why I wanted it is because it was back in my hometown in London, Ontario. Where I went to North Sea. And it ended up being the best move I could have done. Like, I didn't really realize what I was getting into. I had never done sales.
Sarah Brekelmans:But it's the type of company that really holds in and puts the customer first in, like, everything, teaches you sales skills. You lit they literally send you in a car to go pick up customers, and you have to drive them on your own, which to me at the time was super scary. I'm like, I have to sit in a car, like a like, with someone I don't know and try and make conversation with them. It was it was weird at first, but it it got me out of my shell. I met amazing people, many who I've still friends with, and have gone to different places.
Sarah Brekelmans:But, yeah, it was an incredible program that got my initial interest in sales. And it's actually what, you know, despite another you can talk about another career area I went into, it drove me to recruitment, actually.
Martin Hauck:Yeah. Well played. I love that. It was that that wasn't intentional, was it?
Sarah Brekelmans:No. It wasn't.
Martin Hauck:Chef kiss. I just did the Chef kiss I just did the Chef kiss emoji because we haven't gotten the video podcast yet. But, like, that was that was magnificent. So it drove you to recruitment. Does it, like, anything from Eli or Argyle or, Med Buy to, like, you know are there any, like Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Lessons or takeaways from those companies?
Sarah Brekelmans:So it all bridges together. But, basically, after enterprise so sorry. I spent all my years at enterprise were spent while I was in school. And I had decided after university that I actually wanted to move to Toronto and do a post grad in marketing and public relations. I don't even entirely know why.
Sarah Brekelmans:Just marketing always stood out to me. It's something that, in theory, I thought I wanted to do. So what and I and to be honest, I wanted to move to Toronto. So I went and did it, quit enterprise, and got an internship through that program with Eli Lilly from our company, working on a number on public relations on a number of their, over the counter medications, one being Cialis. And, through them, they the agency that worked with them hired me on full time because a pharmaceutical company couldn't couldn't take on staff for insurance.
Sarah Brekelmans:Went over to the agency, did a lot of work on, or marketing programs on cancer treatments, other over the counter medications, including, like, media relations, a lot of writing, events, that type of stuff. And then over those next 5 years, admittedly, I I shifted around a lot. Like, I went to different companies and different marketing roles. Nothing felt like a fit. And in my last marketing role, I was back in London, Ontario because I felt that's where I needed to be at a medical supply company that supplied medical supplies for all the hospitals in Canada.
Sarah Brekelmans:I had a pension. It was, like, the the role that I thought I wanted. And I was like, I still don't like this. This is I'm not passionate about this at all. So Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:I did some self reflecting and was like, I don't think it's the companies and roles are are to fit. It's me. I'm not a fit for marketing. I like marketing. I love the theory of marketing.
Sarah Brekelmans:I love the impact that it makes. But at the end of the day, I don't like doing marketing.
Martin Hauck:Interesting.
Sarah Brekelmans:I kinda took a step back. It was like, well, what do I wanna do? And the conclusion was I wanted to return or shift somehow back to sales because I love what I did at enterprise. I love the engagement with people and whatnot. So I started talking to headhunters, and that's kind of how well, started talking to headhunters because they had media relations or media sales openings, and they thought that I could be a good fit just based on my background.
Sarah Brekelmans:And I will put it bluntly. I had a terrible experience with multiple headhunters. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I think a lot of candidates, unfortunately, have had bad experiences sometimes, but I was ghosted.
Sarah Brekelmans:You know, I went to 3rd interviews, never heard back, didn't feel like some of these headhunters knew the the roles or even understood my skill set as a marketer. And I will say very naively, like, young Sarah was like, I can do that. I can do that way better. I I'm I'm gonna change this. I guess, 9 Lee, like, now what I know in recruitment 10 years later, there's obviously a lot of nuances that I had no idea.
Sarah Brekelmans:But I was like, you know what? I'm gonna become a recruiter. So in my apartment in London, Ontario, I started cold calling creative recruitment agencies. They didn't really wanna talk to me because I I didn't have recruitment experience. I lived in London, Ontario.
Sarah Brekelmans:They're like, who is this girl? But finally, I kind of figured out this angle of how to pitch myself, and I ended up getting 2 offers. 1 when creative group at Robert Half, who I'm sure you obviously know of, and moved back to Toronto and jumped into recruiting, basically. And I immediately knew I was like, this is exactly where I need to be, as sappy as that sounds. But I just, like, dove right in and loved it all.
Sarah Brekelmans:I'm like, oh my god. This is a career I've been trying to find. It's and yeah. And here I am 10 years later.
Martin Hauck:10 years later, we're we're recruiting. What I what I love about that, and there's a million things to, to double click on, but what I love is that oftentimes the story is I got tapped on the shoulder or it's like this Illuminati, like, you know, bait and switch. Not like, not a bait and switch, but, like, oh, I was interviewing with a recruiter for all these jobs, and then the recruiter said, hey. You know what? You'd be great at recruiting.
Martin Hauck:Why don't you come work for us kind of thing? And this is the reverse. Like, you were like, no. I want this, and you kick the door down and you figured out how. What what was the, thing that the positioning thing that you changed, or that, like, reset and, like, okay.
Martin Hauck:Cool. Now they're finally taking me seriously or
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. So as I started talking, I a lot of people very graciously did informational interviews with me. And what I didn't know before talking to agencies, which I don't think a lot of people do outside of the HR, you know, recruiting industry, is that recruitment agencies are heavily sales. Like, it's recruitment, but there's a sales environment. And so when I started to hear that, it was like, oh, enterprise.
Sarah Brekelmans:Like, I have this great sales experience. Why don't I leverage that? So I started pitching myself as, you know, I'm a marketer by trade, but I have an incredible sales background. I think I could do this. And it was it was specifically at Robert Half.
Sarah Brekelmans:It was, the person that hired me, Deb Deborah Bonneau. She had already hired people that had been in enterprise and had been successful. And so it clicked for her, and she was like, I I take a risk on you. I'm gonna put you in this role, and you're gonna you're gonna have to pick up a lot of the information on your own, but here you go. Interesting.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Ironic I guess, I'm I'm curious. This is a little bit of a sidebar from your career, but from the lens of, like, your recruitment experience. Because I that's that's my favorite thing is the shop. Like, that is the that is the you don't get to do it all the time because sometimes clients are like, no. We need person to have done x y and z for x number of years.
Martin Hauck:Yeah. We get that. Well, that that makes sense. Like, that's part of the thing. But every once in a while, you come across someone and you're like, they gotta meet this person.
Martin Hauck:They're incredible. In your career, how often did those types of hires happen from, like, the agency side or from the, like, partner side versus, like, internal. Because internally, you can internal, it's easier because the risk isn't associated with an additional cost. Right?
Sarah Brekelmans:Mhmm. Mhmm. I would say it happened sorry. Just to clarify, you mean, like, people I've recruited into roles where the client's taken a risk on, like, kind of a different profile, assumptions?
Martin Hauck:Yeah. Just in general, like, what how often do you see clients taking risks on those types of high potential hires that kind of go against, like, the JD they originally threw threw
Sarah Brekelmans:at you? Yeah. So I'll kinda there's 2 answers to that just because of 2 different areas of my recruiting career. In my earlier days as a recruiter, I was working on a lot more junior roles and often enough, it was more about tenacity and drive and passion. So, there was a lot of key placements that I was really proud of because it was, you know, people that were new to Canada or Mhmm.
Sarah Brekelmans:Had just came out of school or, you know, had something just different that it was a je ne sais quoi, but the client was like, yeah. Okay. I'll take a risk on
Martin Hauck:this one.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. Yeah. And I love
Martin Hauck:those placements. Have explored.
Sarah Brekelmans:Exactly. Yeah. And I love those placements because many of them excelled, and it was an I was able to actually give someone an opport an opportunity. Right? Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:Which is what I think we all love about recruitment. But, sometimes you're not always able to do that. Right? So Yeah. Now in my later career, like now, for example, it actually happens more than you would think.
Sarah Brekelmans:It it doesn't mean that the person doesn't have experience, but I find a lot of clients will come. I work you know, as you know, I work mostly with start ups. Most of them or a lot of them will come and say, we want a marketer from this industry at this level, you know, very specific specs, which is very normal. If they're working with me, they they want the full checklist, basically. But often enough, they end up hiring the person that shows a lot more drive, a lot more passion that probably doesn't come with, like, 3 or 4 of those check marks.
Sarah Brekelmans:And they learn through the process that, yeah, okay. They might not have, like, everything, but they'll make up for it in their drive and what they wanna learn. Yep. Okay.
Martin Hauck:Going back to you, yeah, you've been doing recruitment for 10 plus years. You've got your own firm. You're focused on marketing. And before the podcast, like, what are we gonna talk about? And immediately, it was just like the first thing you suggested.
Martin Hauck:It was like, yes. That is gonna add value to the listeners, the people that are either in HR or in recruitment. But maybe they're generalists in terms of, like, the roles that they're working on. Whereas your focus for the most part of your career, yeah Yeah. Has has been marketing.
Martin Hauck:Right? You you niched down in terms of okay. Well, I've got a background in marking marketing, so I'm gonna lean on that, and that's how I'm gonna break in. And you haven't really so I guess you haven't you haven't diverted from that. It's been that's and and that's, I think, what anytime people ask the question, well, hey, do you like, I'm looking for referrals for, like, a recruitment agency to work with.
Martin Hauck:Who should like, the first recommendation I go with is, like, you know what you're getting into if you've worked with agencies in the past. You know, you've you've got a budget. You've got this in mind. The end goal is to hire a person. You wanna go with someone as niche as possible because if you're going with the, like, broad spectrum catch all circumstance, then then you're losing all the benefits.
Martin Hauck:And I guess, you know, if that's a lesson in itself then great, but for for those of us who are internal and we're working on marketing roles and maybe we just picked up a new marketing role, what are the nuances that you've learned about marketing recruitment that that someone who is more of a generalist could or should pick up on in order to be a bit more successful within the marketing sphere.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. Yeah. I'll kind of narrow it a little bit to more startups because that's where I'm playing the most. So to all the points you made, I agree. And, like, that's the that's the value that I hope I bring to clients, and it's also how I look at you know, if you're gonna hire a recruitment partner, I think niche in any area is better than a general.
Sarah Brekelmans:But a lot of generals do really great too. So with all that to say, marketing has really changed over the past, you know, the 10 years I've worked in it, but also in the past 5 years specifically. Mhmm. Because marketing is no longer just brand. It hasn't been for a long time.
Sarah Brekelmans:There's a lot of elements. There's a lot of areas and better metrics that we can use to actually see how marketing is making an impact on the business. And when a a tech starter, for example, hires a marketer, they are looking for that person to actually push the dial on revenue. So why I say that is is that the way that most companies have been evaluating marketers is not aligned with what they're actually looking to hire. And so what ends up happening is that there's a lot of mishires.
Sarah Brekelmans:There's a lot of false expectations or or misaligned expectations. And if you look at the tenure for marketers, especially at the leadership level in startups, it it's it's quite short. Like, sometimes it's getting better, but it's it's been sometimes under 2 years. And it's, you know, it's a mix of candidates not being able not being not being matched with the right goal, but a lot of it comes down to the interview. And it's the questions so sorry.
Sarah Brekelmans:A lot of my clients will say, you know, our biggest challenge is that, you know, marketers are really great at marketing themselves. And, like, we can't get past that. I'm like Yeah. Yes but no. Like, you can get back past it with the right questions.
Sarah Brekelmans:I just don't think you most companies are asking the right questions. It needs to be, you know, more intricate and more, questions that are drilling into more than just conversion rates. How did they do things? How did they change things? What kind of testing did did they do?
Sarah Brekelmans:Like, really getting into nitty gritty of their metrics and understanding what those were as much as you can to understand, can this person actually push the dial in the areas that I need them to in our business. Yep. Yep.
Martin Hauck:And in I think that's, like, oftentimes the issue. Right? Is that, oh, we we we haven't had success in this role. Why? And it's less about the availability of the talent but not being able to assess the talent properly because the job hasn't been scoped properly because it's not you're not hiring it's easier to hire salespeople just because you tend to hire a lot of them.
Martin Hauck:So a sales leader is constantly in in hiring mode. Whereas marketing, you you get the opportunity to establish your team and have a bit more of a secure, like, this is the team we're moving forward with, you know, one person will move on. It's less of that. It's less of the kind of churn that you might see in in a sales, sales team.
Sarah Brekelmans:Mhmm.
Martin Hauck:And so I guess that means the hiring managers, despite having hired people might not have like the best like how does a recruiter internally kind of fight that? Like, what questions like, if they don't know the marketing sphere, right, and they haven't, like, really partnered with the marketing leader, that's the first thing. Like, that's the, like, okay, cool. Like, create, establish some sort of partnership. But what you're saying is interesting to me is, like, even they aren't, like, thinking about things in the right way and that's where you come in as the advisor be, like, actually, it sounds like from what you're saying and what you've told me, but, like, hey, how did, like if you haven't mentioned how this ties back to revenue, we're gonna fall flat if we hired the person that you've described.
Martin Hauck:So I guess what what have you found to be, like, helpful, when having those conversations or, like, getting them back on track with the right profile, and whatnot? Yeah.
Sarah Brekelmans:That's a good question. So I think if if I'm talking if I'm working with a founder, for example, a founder or a CEO, that's usually where Yep. The conversations at least start. And a lot of times, there's especially if it's the first marketing hire or even the second, they don't know a lot of marketing resources. It's we need to find someone that can do everything.
Sarah Brekelmans:And I get it. Like and and there's a lot of posts out there. And for a lot of roles, it's like, oh, this person wants to hire a VP that has does this, this, this, and this. They're actually looking for a full department, like, which I love those posts, and it is very true. But it's very natural for, you know, a founder or whatnot to go into well, we need everything done for marketing.
Sarah Brekelmans:So we need them to do everything, which is okay, but there's a different way to look at it. And the way to look at it is you need a leader that knows how to hire and outsource the right things to the right people and the right roles and where the priorities are. That's what you need. Because at the end of the day, you can find the person that does quote unquote everything, jack of all trades, master of none. You are you're setting yourself and that person up for failure.
Sarah Brekelmans:Hands down. But the goal is to actually look for someone that can tell you and is self aware enough and knows where they play, what areas they play in best and says, hey. I play best in driving, product marketing strategy, demand generation. However, when it comes to events in public relations or what have you, this is where we're gonna need to go. I'm gonna hire someone, you know, whether it's external to do content on this, this, and this, or our next hire after myself is going to be this hire.
Sarah Brekelmans:And a lot of that that full information doesn't come out until after they do a full analysis of the current marketing that exists. But what they should really be evaluating for instead of, hey, this person can do everything is, what are they really good at? What would they say we need to outsource or start hiring for, and where do we start?
Martin Hauck:Yep.
Sarah Brekelmans:And that's probably those are the most common conversations I have.
Martin Hauck:Okay. That that, that's interesting because I feel like the natural it's the the the worst problem in tech and just any company is like, oh, we've got a problem. A full time hire is going to solve it. And that full time hire typically leans towards, like, you can't hire the generalist to do all the things because they're just gonna do all the things poorly. And maybe their favorite things, which might not even align with the main goal, they're gonna do the main things that they're gonna well.
Martin Hauck:But it sounds like the question to really ask these, not only the founders, but the candidates, I'm reiterating what you kinda said here, but, like, it's really based it's it's a let's share our business, Let's share the information. Like, give you as much give you as the candidate as much information about our business with as possible. And then you come back to us with what your recommendations are and see, first off, like, how quickly and aligned it seems. And then b, I guess, is, like, to your point, like, what are you outsourcing and what are you what are we doing ourselves as a business? How is that going to get done?
Martin Hauck:And how much budget, so to speak, do you believe we need to, like, accomplish what we need to with everything else? Because it's, like, absolutely impossible for a person to do all the all the one thing. But I I don't know that those are, like, the naturally part of the conversation regularly.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. And that's where that whole, you know, mergers know how to sell themselves, and it ends up being fluff. Because if you go to someone who wants a job and says, hey. Can you do this? Can you do this?
Sarah Brekelmans:Can you do this? They're probably gonna say, not sorry. Not all of them, but some of them will say, yeah. Yeah. I can do that.
Sarah Brekelmans:So you're getting the yes the yes person. And so if you frame the conversation that way, that that's where it's it could potentially go. But if you frame it as some of the areas that you would need support on, and let's talk about how you would structure that or how you would get that done. It's basically, you wanna find someone that's resourceful. You wanna find someone that, can get quote, unquote, scrappy.
Sarah Brekelmans:I know that word. It's somewhere wrong. Way too often. But, but scrappy in the sense of not, like, getting in the weeds of everything. It's finding the right people to do the work that's needed.
Martin Hauck:Yeah. It's interesting because you've described, like, initially, as you were talking about this, I immediately thought of I'm like, oh, this is Richard Branson's fault. Right? Because he's like, if somebody offers you an amazing opportunity, but you're not sure you can do it, just say yes and then learn how to do it later. Like, what an inspiring quote to be like, yeah.
Martin Hauck:Like, I should just fake it till I make it kind of thing. And so you have all these people that are like, yeah. Richard Branson. Awesome. I'm just gonna fake it till I make it.
Martin Hauck:And then those cause misires. But the mentality to your point. Right? It's like scrappiness is like there are people who can fake it till they make it really well. And then there's the ones that are like, oh, yeah.
Martin Hauck:This was just really well done. And they want the job, so they're gonna say everything that they can to get the job, and they're good at marketing themselves. What how would you how would you vet between like, how do you look what are the things to kinda distinguish between that person and the other person?
Sarah Brekelmans:Mhmm. So so first off, I don't fully disagree with, you know, the Richard Branson fake it till you make
Martin Hauck:it. No.
Sarah Brekelmans:But in a different way. Like, for example, I love when you have, you know, someone that's in a director role or you know, and is ready for that next step, and they're, like, they're ready to go to that next step. Right? Or they they get till they make it. They've taken on responsibility.
Sarah Brekelmans:They've taken on managing people in a in a different way, mentoring people to try and get to that next step. That's what I'm take it till you make it means to me. It's taking that immediate next step in your career, in your current role, and expanding it, and then going after that next role. I think that's great. But if you're saying that you're really good at a certain area, not just in marketing, I could this could apply to other roles too, but in a certain area and you really need support on that, that's great to say it in an interview.
Sarah Brekelmans:And I tell this to candidates all the time. That's great. Like, awesome. It's one thing to get the job. It's another thing to do it.
Sarah Brekelmans:And I think if we could look at a lot of these hires during COVID that happened when the market in what was it? 20 2020 2020 2021 where there was such a high demand for a lot of different tech people. And, you know, they were hiring, you know, people that were maybe not fully ready for the next role, but they said they were, so they hired them. A lot of those people got burned out and quit or or didn't work out because they didn't say talk about the support that they needed. So I think that's a big lesson, but I did go off track there.
Sarah Brekelmans:In terms of
Martin Hauck:That's fine.
Sarah Brekelmans:How I evaluate have you ever do you know Jason Lemkin? Yep. Yeah. So Saster, he writes a lot of, lot of content. His team writes a lot of content.
Sarah Brekelmans:And one thing that he
Martin Hauck:wrote conference.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. Exactly. And he has a really good, blog actually for, you can actually type in, like, hiring specific for certain roles, and it will tons of content pops up. It's a really cool site. And the one thing that's always stuck with me that he wrote about is when you're interviewing a marketing leader, it's asking them, like, where would you focus first?
Sarah Brekelmans:Where are the first two areas you would focus on if you were to get into a role? Mhmm. And most often, those two areas they mentioned first are the areas that they're most proud of and where they they have the most experience in. So if we start digging into that, you'll you'll find that if if that is how they end up presenting themselves, let's say you're hiring for a demand a role that's focused heavily on demand generation, but they're talking about content and Yeah. Product marketing, maybe that's not the person that's really although they say they can do it, it it might not be the person that can actually do it really well.
Martin Hauck:Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like the right answer to that question is, like, where would you focus first? Deserve the question, Many questions in response. Like, the marketer should be like, well, what's this?
Martin Hauck:What's this? What's this? What's this? Okay. If this, this, this, and this are your plan, then this is my plan as a part as opposed to, like, well, I've made all these assumptions about your, like and then it feels like yeah.
Martin Hauck:Interesting. Mhmm. How maybe this is selfish for myself as, like, a fractional consultant, but how has the landscape changed from your perspective, like, engaging with clients and, whatnot? Like, there seems to be chapters or
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Acts to to what's, like, the post, you know, post pandemic environment and market.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. I mean, my opinion honestly changes every month because it's so different. But
Martin Hauck:Okay.
Sarah Brekelmans:But I will say, you know, if you're talking about, like, the height of when the market was so crazy busy, which is when I started Brightly, it was crazy. Like, everyone every recruiter was crazy busy. I mean, there was just I've never seen in my 10 years of recruitment, I had never seen it. It's just so much demand, in such a tight market. So there's that.
Sarah Brekelmans:And, obviously, it kinda went the opposite this past year for a lot of Yeah. For a lot of recruiters that did, in the market overall. A lot of unfortunate layoffs, which is a direct impact of that really busy time. Right? And I think a lot of startups have learned from it.
Sarah Brekelmans:I don't think it sucks that that's how Yeah. We had to learn, but it is what it is. I think I think companies are being very a lot more cautious with their hiring. So the past year, I think a lot of companies actually just froze on a lot of hires. Of course, unfortunately, a lot of them were doing layoffs.
Sarah Brekelmans:And then for any hires, it would it was kind of more like either replacements or something they had needed before. And then you had your companies that were a few companies that were still getting funding or, you know, had made some hires. But I think going into this year, I am seeing it getting busier. But companies are still really diving into okay. What do we actually need in this hire?
Sarah Brekelmans:Let's make sure if we're hiring these people like, let's just not make a hire because we have funding. Let's let's Yeah. You know, let's not make 60 hires because we now have all this money and just, like, you know, that rocket mentality is, I think, that's that's going away. And Yeah. I think it's a good thing because there's just been so many hires that happened over the past few years that, you know, it just hasn't landed in the success for the company and the success of the the people in those roles either.
Sarah Brekelmans:So, yeah, I think this month, I'm finding it interesting that a lot of companies are pressing go on hires that they were very very cautious of and have now said, okay. Now is the time for us, but we're still gonna be careful, which sometimes means a lot more picky. But, you know, I think it's for the benefit of both the company and any candidate going into a role. So Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Last question before we we sign off here, and it's more of like a tactical one. But I think it's a skill that I brought from the recruitment world to, from the agency recruitment world to internal that a lot of folks don't get the chance to exercise. And it is getting comfortable with pressure testing the hiring manager, and you do this as a necessity. It is a pure survival skill as an agency recruiter because you got, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 requisitions. Maybe it's 5, 10 different clients, and you're gonna spend your time and energy.
Martin Hauck:Your success is predicated on you spending time and energy with the people that are actually going to make a hire versus people that think they need to make a hire but haven't figured out their profile and you can smell it from a mile away. What what are your what are your tips for folks internally on how to suss that out? Because it happens just as much with if it happens to to to external recruiters, it happens to folks internally as well. And so it's just as frustrating. Right?
Martin Hauck:So
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. I the way I kind of test, like, their temperature on how eager or not eager they are to make a hire is saying is really kind of putting out there, okay. We're gonna start tomorrow. If we get started tomorrow, let's work back. Like, when is this person in the seat?
Sarah Brekelmans:When are you prepared to to Yeah. To onboard this person? And then let's work back from there. And I say that for I asked that question for two reasons. 1 is to obviously project manage and get a sense of the timing that, you know, we have for recruiting and whatnot, but also to see their reaction.
Sarah Brekelmans:Because if they fumble and don't know, then more questions need to be asked. It's are you exploring the market, or are you ready to actually dive into the market from a hiring It sounds all great to explore, but when It sounds all great to explore, but when you actually wanna make that higher, you're gonna be back at square 1 again anyways. So Yeah. Let's revisit that and talk about would you actually want to start making that higher.
Martin Hauck:Yep. Yeah. And this is this is what you can do to explore. Just let's put let's put the posting up. Interview people on your own.
Martin Hauck:If you make a hire, fantastic.
Sarah Brekelmans:For sure. But Start networking. Start talking to your Yeah. Colleagues or, you know, whatnot. That would be the better way to go than to obviously start recruiting.
Martin Hauck:Yep. Yep. This is just a bad candidate experience as well because they're they're figuring that out on their own.
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah.
Martin Hauck:Awesome. What what do people need to know about Brightly? What do people need to know about you and, you know, when should they tap you on the shoulder?
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. What should I know about Brightly? Well, I am incredibly passionate about recruitment, probably too much. But I say that because I'm the type of person I'm always happy to have conversations. I think a lot of people, you know and I get it.
Sarah Brekelmans:If a recruiter reaches out to a client, you know, on on LinkedIn, it's like, no. I don't need any help. Like, I'm not paying for help. I don't need a recruiter. And that's totally cool.
Sarah Brekelmans:I get that. But I also just love being there as a resource and helping the startup community or anyone higher for marketing overall because I think that sometimes the roles can be really challenging. So even when people don't or companies or recruiters, you know, in the the the network, you know, don't necessarily need actual help, but just need someone to pick their brain on. Like, how should I evaluate this, or how can I talk to the hiring manager about what skills they actually need? Or, you know, a lot of the things we discussed in this podcast, I'm always happy to chat.
Sarah Brekelmans:I'd rather help someone to better at their job and be successful than, you know, just not. So, yeah. But then, overall, you know, anything marketing related, I'm always happy to help with, whether it's formally or or informally.
Martin Hauck:Awesome. Awesome. And, yeah, focused on on marketing, that's the that that covers a broad range. I see on your LinkedIn for Brightly, you've got, like, UX, UI as well. It's kind of adjacent, like, product and, like Definitely.
Martin Hauck:How how broad you kind of stick to those because product and marketing and product marketing, they they they got together and created a new department. It seems like it's sometimes, like, that's all of that stuff, basically. Yeah?
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. I would say, you know, everything under the marketing department is pretty pretty obvious, but things that are a little bit, you know, to the side of marketing would be product management, data analytics, which usually ties to marketing analytics. And then I would say the most, you know, outside of marketing is is people and and talent roles. That's just come naturally. But, also, usually, clients have worked with me on a marketing role, and then they've they've asked me to work on on that side.
Sarah Brekelmans:So, but, yeah, marketing it marketing is is is my jam, I would say.
Martin Hauck:Nice. Nice. Awesome. And best way for folks to get in touch with you. I will leave that, in the description of the podcast and in our newsletter.
Martin Hauck:But for the record, what is the best way?
Sarah Brekelmans:Yeah. You can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn, or you can email me. It's just sarah@brightlysearch.com.
Martin Hauck:Perfect. Awesome.
Sarah Brekelmans:Thanks so much.
Martin Hauck:Thanks so much for your time today, Sarah.
Sarah Brekelmans:Thank you. This is great. I appreciate it.
Martin Hauck:Awesome. Alright. And for those of you still around, like I said, you will have access to all the links, in the podcast. As a reminder, if you are not already a part of the people people group, you probably should be. So check us out.
Martin Hauck:And on top of that, that's that's basically it until next time. May all your candidates be awesome and may all your emails be read thoroughly. Cheers.
Creators and Guests
