From A People Perspective

Martin (01:23)
What's up everybody? This is gonna be a fun episode, isn't it gonna be? Don't you think Topaz?

Topaz (he/him) (01:29)
That was a lot of pressure, but I'm up for it. I'll deliver. Let's do it.

Martin (01:33)
⁓ the pressure's on me though. All the pressure is on me. ⁓

all right folks today we've got Topaz Adidas and he is an Emmy award winning design experience design architect. And traditionally on this show where we have HR and recruitment and operations leaders. And I don't know that that's the bucket that you fit into traditionally Topaz. ⁓ but I, I'm excited to pull at the thread that.

make sense to me and will definitely make sense to all of our listeners so welcome to the show topaz thanks for being on

Topaz (he/him) (02:09)
It's good to be here, Martin. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Martin (02:12)
So for the unannointed, ⁓ walk us through who you are. Make a quick little introduction and then we can dive into some questions about, ⁓ yeah, just a quick intro on you.

Topaz (he/him) (02:26)
Click intros for the last 12 years. I've been founder and running the experience design studio called The Skin Deep. And the question that we at The Skin Deep were asking was how is the, this is 2013, 14 when we started and it was simply, how's the emotional experience of being human changing in lieu of all this technology that's coming about? Dating on OkCupid or whatnot and how has that changed the way we're relating?

Martin (02:47)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (02:54)
How is just most messaging, DMs and WhatsApping versus a phone call or hanging in the park? How is technology shifting the way we're emotionally experienced being human? And we've been doing that for the last 12 years. We've created a number of experiences, digital and analog. We've had some success. The biggest one is something called The And, which is about the space between. It's about you and I, us and them. It's the and that connects us. So the and won the enemy and we've been...

Martin (03:21)
Mmm.

Topaz (he/him) (03:24)
releasing these videos in which we bring two people who are in any kind of relationship, grandparent with grandchild, best friends, exes, lovers, family, they face each other and they ask each other questions. And we've been releasing a video a week for the last 12 years on YouTube and on our channels. So we kind of have, at this point, we have nearly 1,300 conversations recorded in 10 countries. So we have a whole breadth of work, but also a depth of work because

some of these people keep coming back year after year. We have pairs come and you can kind of see how they evolve over 10, 12 years. So I've been doing that and that learned turn into a book, it turned into card games. originally I was like a filmmaker, but then when I launched the Skin Deep and explore this question, really for the last 12 years, I've just been studying, I've been in the humble position of watching two people have a real conversation. You bring them to a room and you sit back and you give them,

Martin (04:20)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (04:23)
I give them questions, my team and I pose them questions, they ask each other and we just sit back and watch for an hour, hour and a half. And you do that for 10 years, 12 years, and you start noticing patterns, and you start noticing things. And I'm just in that honored position of witnessing humans being humans.

Martin (04:42)
I'm, I'm jealous for, for a bunch of reasons and I have so many questions. ⁓ and, and this is gonna, this is going to be a fun podcast before we dive into those. ⁓ and you said the pressure was on, but I, I, I feel like it's in the reverse cause you're, you've, you've mastered the art of creating good questions to ask people to get to the, to the, get to the point. And these are just surface level ones. we talked a bit about music, before we jumped on here. I'm curious.

Topaz (he/him) (04:53)
Yeah.

Bring it.

Yeah.

Martin (05:11)
⁓ for you, ⁓ if you only had one album or one artist to listen to for the rest of time, which one would that be?

Topaz (he/him) (05:20)
Dude, it's

right over your right shoulder above Johnny Cash. It's Exodus. It's probably Exodus or maybe Kaia. I mean, it's a Bob Marley album, basically. I mean, if I had to go, just because, I don't know, I think Bob was a leader of our time, incredible soul, incredible musician. I appreciate the music he made. And more importantly, I feel

Martin (05:24)
Exodus?

It's a yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (05:49)
I feel a positive sensation when I listen to his music, albeit how important politically or where it is. I do feel good vibes after listening to it. Versus like a Fela Kuti album, like for me, like never stop a Fela Kuti song in the middle because that, is taking you deep and deep and down. And if you stop there, you're like in the depths of your soul. gotta make sure you let the song end because he brings you back up and out, you know, in my opinion.

Martin (05:52)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (06:17)
⁓ Or like Johnny Cash's, I mean, I love Johnny Cash's last album, the one that he did with all the covers. I don't remember what that was called, but for me would be a, yeah, yeah, I mean, which is almost like he almost made that song his own in an incredible way. think Mark Romadeck made the most amazing music video. know, Mark Romadeck, the director went to his house and just literally filmed his home for a day or two. Came out with that incredible music video, but it just.

Martin (06:24)
Hmm.

One where he sang Hurt by Trent Weisner, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he passed like similar to Ozzy Osbourne. He passed like, you know, months later after that, it's kind of like a it's it's nice to see artists being able to sort of say goodbye and like, I'm sure they're family and friends, but they're the artists get to say goodbye to their fans almost in in a really touching way.

Topaz (he/him) (07:05)
Yeah,

yeah. and like, yeah, it's interesting. What would be?

Martin (07:09)
Yeah.

Exodus. Okay, no, I

haven't heard of the other artist that you mentioned. Feli Kuti? Feli Kuti, yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (07:18)
Fela Kuti?

Fela Kuti, my man, drop. Fela Kuti, Nigerian musician. I'm pretty sure he's Nigerian, just incredible. ⁓ His music will be jazz, or kind of like, I don't know if you'd say they're jazzy soulful with African rhythms, but he takes you, big band, but he'll take you into the depths of your soul and then bring you back out. Because the song's gonna be seven, eight.

Martin (07:24)
Okay.

Amazing.

Topaz (he/him) (07:47)
12 minutes long.

Martin (07:48)
Yeah, yeah.

I've got some. I've got some tracks. We're going to trade some tracks after this. Yeah, definitely. I'm excited. ⁓ Yeah, and. Midnight snack wise, what are you going for in the middle of the night and you can't sleep and you're going to you know what? I'm going to I deserve this.

Topaz (he/him) (07:56)
Amazing.

Dude, is it a midnight snack or a day snack? It's a chocolate chip cookie, straight up. It's funny, my son wakes, anytime my wife and my son make cookies, because they're on this thing about making cookies, the next day in the morning, my son will come and be did you eat any cookies at night? He'll just like this morning, because we made some last night, so this is the first thing he asked me this morning. He's like, daddy, did you eat any cookies? I said, I'm not touching the cookies right now. I'm intermittent fasting. I'm good.

Martin (08:14)
Okay, all right.

Are you,

are you the resident like food thief that like, know, ⁓ you know, if it's missing, it was probably, it probably pops.

Topaz (he/him) (08:44)
I mean if it's chocolate chip cookies, yeah. If it's carrots, probably not.

Martin (08:46)
Yeah, that's

No, no,

Topaz (he/him) (08:51)
You know, let's be honest. Chocolate chip cookie, that's dangerous, man. I'm all over that.

Martin (08:56)
Yeah, no self control is difficult when it comes to chocolate and me. That's for sure. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. ⁓ so yeah, no, that's, that's helpful. Let's, let's dive into it. Like there's, I guess the

How did you get into all of this? How did, know, bring me from where you started off, maybe let's start like first job as a kid. Like how did that shape you and where did you start off?

Topaz (he/him) (09:16)
Yeah.

I mean, first job as a kid was...

What, bussing tables? Probably bussing tables. Moving furniture, antique furniture in Australia, making money trying to travel. I had a job, I've only had like three desk jobs in my life and I find it really hard to stay alive, stay awake. I had one with a...

Martin (09:55)
You

Topaz (he/him) (09:59)
Bill Gross's company, he was the first incubator out of Pasadena back in 2000. I was what? I was in college. Was I in college? I was in college, I think. It's like a summer year in college or something or between high school and college. And ⁓ I found myself falling asleep at work all the time. I just found myself not inspired. I found myself ⁓ pretending to look busy versus being busy. ⁓ And I didn't like it.

And the other jobs I've had, like directing something for like National Geographic TV channel or Animal Planet. I remember going to production companies and getting the work done in half the time, but then having to pretend to be busy the other half of the time. And there was kind of a communal pressure, right? Because they don't want you to, if the executives realize like, this guy's getting everything done in half a day, but everyone's taking a full day, then what's going on here? And it's like, no, you gotta slow down. We gotta slow down.

Martin (10:39)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (10:57)
because everyone thinks this is the pace and I just found myself.

I just found myself wasting time to get the check for sure, but just not making the most of my energy and this time on this planet. And that's probably why I didn't go to film school per se, because I realized I knew myself and I knew, okay, I'm gonna go to film school and I'll take the classes and I'll do the homework and I'll do the project and then I'll finish it then I'll just wait the semester and hang around and...

Martin (11:10)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (11:28)
Okay, and I was like, that's not good for me. What I need is I need a candle under my ass every day and hustling and pushing it. Because if I go into a system and the system is not operating as fast as I can operate, then I'll operate and then spend half my time wasting my time. And I just said that's something that really just like the biggest, we don't have that much time. So you got to make the most of what you have. And I extend that to my team members on our team.

Martin (11:51)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (11:57)
Just saying like, look, if you're working here and you feel like you're A, not contributing or B, not learning or not making the most of your time, then let's find you another place. Because you should just not waste your time or energy doing something where you're not doing one of those three things, learning, growing, contributing.

Martin (12:13)
Yeah, that's a powerful thing to, to be able to share with the team. And that's not your standard experience in the workforce, unfortunately, these days, but I think you have the, you have the benefit of being able to do that for your team. And there are companies that kind of pull people into that direction, but ⁓ what

There's a huge level of self awareness. I think that when did you realize, like, was it super early on that like this system's not going to work for me? Or was it more accidental?

Topaz (he/him) (12:49)
Yeah, I think

Well, I I was falling, getting depressed because I had a brother who is 15 months younger than me and we always were competitive, but he was like doing really, he was dominating in that kind of space. He was doing really well and I wasn't. And he was kind of making fun of me a little bit, you know, not malicious. He's a great guy, but like, you know, poking fun at me in this. I just, I just found myself pretty depressed because I wasn't delivering. I should be like, this is a great opportunity.

Martin (13:03)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (13:22)
It's not even a corporate job, it's like a startup incubator, should be fun, and yet I found myself working with two Harvard MBA, wonderful people, but just like asking for this report and talking about the presentation, just like I wasn't excited. I was not excited. I wanted like to build things with my hands, talk to people, be in there. I couldn't be in the office, I needed to be out there. ⁓ And so for me, what I found was I basically, after I graduated university and everything,

Martin (13:35)
Yeah. ⁓

Topaz (he/him) (13:52)
and I knew how fortunate I was that I was healthy, my parents were healthy, I had a college degree, I didn't have college debt, I went to UC Berkeley, so it was public school and back then it wasn't that much, know? And I was like, I'm gonna travel, I'm gonna go and find out what is it that I wanna do with my life because I'm like, this is 1999, was like, 0, 0, 0, 1 % of the population who has the luxury to even consider what they want, so.

I worked at my family's restaurant, ⁓ made a lot of cash and went off and started traveling and I took a camera with me. And I started realizing how this camera was like my way in. It like a door opener to ask questions, to explore. Because I was just like I was searching for my own path and opportunity and like who I was. The camera was like a way for me to find out what other people were and what they were doing. You know, that then can therefore...

Martin (14:41)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (14:48)
inform me and my understanding of who I was. And the camera was just a wonderful way to open that door. Because if you just show up and ask someone, hey, what, that, that, that, they're like, who are you? But you're like, I have a camera. Hey, I'm traveling, I have a camera, I'd love to ask you some questions. And this is 2000, so it wasn't like everyone had a camera then, it wasn't like everyone was doing it like it was now. I it was hard enough to edit and forget about posting online. But I found that was a wonderful tool for me to start exploring

who I was through the exploration of who other people were.

Martin (15:22)
Do you remember the first person that you approached and kind of took a picture of or recorded and sort of like went deep with them to the point where like you're just experimenting, I imagine, or do you remember that sort of like first instance? Is there one that stands out in your mind or an experience that stands out in your mind where it kind of like clicked like, hey, I want to do more of this.

Topaz (he/him) (15:49)
I'm laughing because like, I'll tell you what I, the first thing that comes to mind is I filmed my friend Natalie Goldberg, who's a film producer out of London. We were both like traveling in Australia and I just like told her that I'm doing this and she was actually doing that for work at that point. She was a few years older than me. So I remember she's like, you can interview me and I interview her and we're still friends now like 25 years later. She does not stop making fun of me about my, you know, acting, trying to be with the camera, discovering. ⁓

Years later, I made a film traveling around the world exploring American identity in 2007. And I found myself in Vietnam following a former American soldier who suffered from PTSD but now living in Vietnam. And he was working with kids with Agent Orange. And I was in a hospital filming kids with Agent Orange. And I remember filming it. And I remember having this distinct experience where like,

Martin (16:24)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (16:47)
My ability to capture a moment was reflective of my own ability to be uncomfortable. Because I'm filming, I'm looking at a small, on the camera has like a small LCD monitor. And let's say I'm on the zoom lens. So let's say even though I'm 20 feet away, the frame feels like I'm two feet away, right? Cause it's close up and the kid looks up and looks at me in the camera and it looked because my frame is so close, it feels like he's only two feet away from me.

Martin (16:58)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (17:15)
And then like, what would I do? I'd zoom out or I'd pan the camera away. Right? But they don't know, they, to them, they look up, I'm 20 feet away. So it's not like I'm, right? And I realize, ⁓ it's my ability to sit with this discomfort to actually capture this moment. And so what I'm seeing around the world and my ability to sit with that and like take information that happens in the uncertain world, capture it, and then obviously put it into an...

Martin (17:20)
⁓

Topaz (he/him) (17:45)
of film or

then share it was actually an inverse effect of my own ability to sit with my discomfort. Because if I can be uncomfortable, but still film and hold that frame and not pan away and not zoom out, then I can capture a moment. Maybe I can capture a reaction from that child in a real moment. And it made me realize like, this is interesting again, like I'm...

Martin (18:01)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (18:10)
exploring people in the world. I'm exploring externally the world, but it's a mirror reflection of my internal awareness, right? You mentioned like being emotionally aware, and I think those are when I started understanding that.

Martin (18:21)
Yeah.

That's interesting because it's almost like...

If you pan back on the camera, while a person's telling the story, you're actually giving them space so they don't have to react, right? In the sense that because if you don't pan back and just stay, stay there and the shot is close, then the person watching and listening and seeing experiencing the story, they're going to feel that included. So it's almost like you're protecting the person that's watching the

content or you were protected you had the inclination just for yourself right ⁓

Topaz (he/him) (19:02)
Myself, yeah. But I'm protecting the

person who's watching the content, not necessarily the person who's the subject, because the subject doesn't know what my frame is. They don't know if it feels like I'm two feet away or if I'm 20 feet away. And isn't it a beautiful gesture to stay in that intimate space with the subject? Because they don't know, to them I'm 20 feet away, but to the viewer and to me, we're two feet away. And if I can just stay in that discomfort and feel that discomfort.

Martin (19:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (19:32)
but stay in that intimacy, ⁓ then you're sharing more of like the story you're telling, you're sharing more of the character you're sharing in that story to the audience. And so I really felt like, this is an interesting practice and awareness of my own ability to be intimate.

Martin (19:52)
This is a bit of a side tangent so we can pivot if it doesn't make sense. But one thing that stood out when you were describing, you you've got, you've documented 1300 intimate conversations between humans. So there's a lot of insights that you have. And part of me feels like because of the nature of the conversation in the environment, they're likely to.

always have or most of the time go deeper than your average conversation based on like the intention behind it. Does that become, is, is it having seen so many, does it mean almost like, I guess the thing I'm trying to translate it to poorly, but the thing I'm trying to translate it to is almost like, do you feel at times sort of like a doctor in the emergency room who's just kind of seen and everything and, and, know,

These things don't necessarily phase you anymore or is every conversation kind of like this, this unique and, and, and special moment that you can kind of capture.

Topaz (he/him) (21:03)
Yeah, good question. ⁓

Most of the time I find myself just in awe and gratitude and grateful for these people's courage. I mean, they're coming into our space and they're sharing a bit of themselves with us. I think we've earned it because we've proven it over 12 years, like, in terms of how we make our edits, in terms of how we title ⁓ the asset pieces. don't make it salacious or anything. We don't edit in a way that really, we're not editing for views and for virality. We're editing for value.

Martin (21:37)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (21:38)
And so I think we've earned it, but I'm always just honored by people's, you know, they're stepping in and they're sharing a bit of their relationship and the intimacy of their relationship with a wider public. And so I do find myself always kind of just watching and awe going, this is kind of weird, right? I mean, I'm sitting in this big space and there's lights and there's three cameras and we're sitting here for an hour and 10, an hour and 15, just not doing anything but just listening.

and we're seeing humans be humans in some sense, and that's a beautiful thing. And it just makes me think of like, how often do we actually do that in our normal day-to-day life? Right? We don't really do that. We don't get, mean, maybe that's why it's a beautiful thing when you go camping or to the woods or something, you sit by the fire and you just sit there and you have a cup of tea or a beer or whatnot or a wine and you sit by the fire for two, three hours instead of the TV or instead of some, and you just talk and those I think are becoming

Martin (22:16)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (22:38)
I just think what we practice we get good at and I don't think in our current society we have the opportunity to practice the stillness of conversation and letting things open up. And so because we get to do that in our line of work, I'm always gratitude. And I feel, yeah, do see, like a doctor, I do see patterns. I definitely see patterns. And I see, ⁓ and I try to...

Martin (22:48)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (23:05)
Okay, I see two patterns. One is I see patterns when people fill out the questionnaire. And when they fill out the questionnaire, I'm seeing what they're saying or what they're not saying and how they say it, and I'm feeling into where's the opportunity for growth here. ⁓ here's where there's either a blind spot or something that they're sharing with us that they haven't shared with their partner, or this thing that they haven't talked about. Is there a way for us to pose questions and in a certain, first pose questions, construct in a certain way, and.

Martin (23:09)
Mm.

Okay.

Topaz (he/him) (23:34)
offer them in a certain sequence that give these people the opportunity to really explore this area that they haven't yet in their relationship or that they're shying away from. But can we do that in a way that's safe, albeit uncomfortable, so that they can grow? And so I try to shape the questions and then I put them in a certain sequence and I feel them out. And in that sense, it does feel like a doctor who's prescribing not medicine, but in a sequence of questions. And that's always cool, right? But every time before they sit down,

Martin (23:56)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (24:03)
I'll meet them, feel the vibe out because it's different in person than it on paper. Then they sit down and I have a moment as they're doing the sound check to review my questions in order, see if I need to add one or move this order. And that's almost like my prescription. And the prescription is not for a result, it's for an opening.

Martin (24:25)
Right.

Topaz (he/him) (24:26)
And like, okay, here's a take home value. If you've been listening this long, 20 minutes, and you're in the HR world or you're in recruiting, it's like, here's a huge distinction. If you want to create the space for a real conversation, articulate your intention, not the agenda. The intention is where you begin. The agenda is where you end up. So if you come to a meeting with an agenda, like, hey, I want to get this person's apology.

or I want them to agree with me on the strategy, or I want this, then you're coming with an agenda. I don't mean an agenda like we're doing these benchmarks. I'm talking about an agenda like I have a strategy for where I want to end up at. People feel that and then they're managing against that agenda. Versus coming to the space and saying, here's my intention. Here's where we're starting from. I don't know where we'll end up, but this is where we're starting from. And when you offer people that, it's like, hey, we don't know where we'll end up. We're on a journey together.

Martin (24:59)
Mm-hmm.

This is

Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (25:23)
They're more willing to participate. So if you're working with HR and you're trying to develop someone or you're trying recruiting, it's like, if we don't articulate what the intention is, then the agenda is always supposed. It's implied. And it's really helpful to just articulate the intention. Where are we starting from? So that everyone knows what the context is and where you're coming from. And then they can join you on the journey. And so when I do the end, go into the end with the prescriptive questions,

Martin (25:35)
Mm-hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (25:51)
The questions are prescription for an intention of a potential journey if they want to take it, but where they end up and where they go, that's up to them.

Martin (25:59)
Yeah. It's the, want to double click on that. So one of the things I see people ops folks having challenges with is let's say leadership team is not working very well together or they're a brand new leadership team. And so a lot of egos in the room and then it's also a professional setting. And I think there's an interesting

There's an interesting piece where what you do is less about the professional setting and more personal, right? So you already kind of drop the mask. There's this expectation there, but oftentimes people ops folks and people leaders are the ones that are tasked with, Hey, the, the executive teams, you know, not functioning at the best capacity. We've hired all these top players from other industries and we've brought them on and assembled to

together to work together as a team, but something's not clicking. How would you take some of the wisdom that you gained over the years through all the conversations that you've, you facilitated and listened in on? What would you tell that people ops person is should be like top priority when they're sort of tasked with that, seemingly impossible or really challenging. Like how do you make eight people work cohesively together?

⁓ that may, may or may not know each other. Like what are some things that stand out to you if you were tasked with that problem?

Topaz (he/him) (27:34)
Yeah, I love that. We can talk about that for a few minutes for sure. I'm gonna try to keep it simple initially, but let's double click on a lot of it if you're up for it. Bottom line, I've learned two things in creating a cathartic conversation that deepens connection. You wanna have a conversation that's gonna deepen your connection, whether intimate or professional, you need two things. One is the space in which you hold the conversation in, and two is well-constructed questions.

So let's talk about the space. I think that's important, just like the space, right?

One thing we can't deny in the workspace is that there are power dynamics. I mean, and the best way to deactivate or diffuse a power dynamic is to acknowledge it.

Martin (28:14)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (28:23)
Like we can't pretend that there's not a power. If your boss comes to you with a question, that question is loaded because it's coming from a power dynamic. And if you don't know why your boss is asking that, are you really gonna answer it completely transparently or are you really answering because you're wondering why they're asking the question and therefore you're gonna answer it in a way that you think is gonna either protect your position or elevate your position and protect your job?

Right? How, so as a leader, think it's always best to just acknowledge the power dynamic in the room. Not directly to say like, hey, I'm the boss, therefore I can fire you. That's explicit. We know that. We don't need this. Or that's implicit. We don't need to make it explicit. But just to say, part of the intention is like, okay, team, because one thing we have to acknowledge too is like, the power does lie in the question. So if you're asking a question,

and we're all focusing on exploring the answer to that question. That's a lot of power because we're all gonna focus on trying to find an answer to that question. Why are we answering that question? Why is that the question to answer? And so generally that comes from the leadership because they have the authority or the responsibility to pose questions, but are they posing quality questions? And I think it's really helpful to say, here's the question I have, and let me tell you why I'm asking it. Let me tell you what, I don't have a result here.

Martin (29:35)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (29:52)
Or I do have a result. I'm asking this question because I think the best plan is this plan. But I'm asking the question because I'm not sure. And I need to make sure that I don't lead us down into a thing that's gonna lose us money or create dysfunction or whatnot. So I need to bounce it off you guys.

So then we're going back to the thing of the intention. They know why you're asking the question. They know what it is where you're standing so that we can create the context by which we're creating the space for us to have the exploration. I mean, you know, it's very like in a very simple example would be after this podcast, you go in the kitchen and your partner is like, Martin, why do you love me? You're like, wait, what, where is this coming from? You're not wondering why you love them. You're wondering where is this coming from?

Martin (30:22)
Yeah.

I did not study

for this test.

Topaz (he/him) (30:41)
You know, like what happened? Like did you, why you, what happened? Right? You're not really wondering. The space is not, or certainly if you come out and your partner is like, Martin, you know, I love you from the moon to the stars and I love that, that, that, that, that, that, that. And you mean so much to me. You're not really receiving that. Cause first you're wondering, wait, what happened? Why am I per se, for the most part, right? Unless of course your relationship was always like that. But generally most are not. You're wondering where is this coming from?

But in our case, you have a card game, right? We have a box of card games and you're playing the game and you pull out the questions, says, why do you love me? ⁓ well, I know why this person's asking me why they love me or I know why they're telling me why they love me. It's because we're playing a game and the question came out as this. And the question is not fed by a person, power dynamic, it's fed by a box, which is equanimity, mutual. And I think it's just like, how do we deactivate the power dynamics in the workspace?

Martin (31:28)
Yeah. Neutral.

Topaz (he/him) (31:37)
so that we can have real conversations. And one way is just to acknowledge the power dynamic by, one way we don't have to say it explicitly, but we can say like, why is it that I'm coming to you with this question? I'm gonna articulate the intention. I'm gonna articulate where we are in the process of making our decisions and explorations so that you can understand what it is that is expected of you and what you can expect from me in this conversation.

Martin (32:01)
Yeah. You're, you're setting, yeah, it's you're setting the, does it make sense? Am I interpreting it right? That if I'm sort of a executive or senior leader and we're in a meeting and I'm interested in the opinions of others, but I also know that there's because of that power dynamic, there's a chance I'm not going to, and this is a real problem, right? You you're surrounded, you know, in a

in a room with a bunch of yes people where everybody's just like, yeah, that's a great idea, great idea. And you're paranoid. And I've seen this happen a bunch of times where executives just tend to favor the people that don't always agree with them because they feel as though they're the ones that are giving them like the honest feedback and have the courage, so to speak. And it does take courage because of the power dynamic. So in that moment is it

Topaz (he/him) (32:48)
Mm-hmm.

Martin (32:56)
just as simple as saying like, listen, I understand that, you know, there's probably a lot of belief that X idea is, is great because we're, we've been working on it for a while, but I want to, I want to kind of pick at this problem or this idea. So I want to hear everybody's thoughts and it's not about going forward. Like I'm happy to change the plan. ⁓

But I want to like, is it as simple as that? Or is there something special behind the scenes that you kind of need to do in order to kind of get people to truly feel comfortable to share their actual opinions as opposed to like their masked opinions?

Topaz (he/him) (33:37)
Well, think one, yes, it's as simple as that, but two, it's behind the scenes is time. mean, for someone to earn trust with you, it doesn't come from the first meeting, it comes from over time, right? I think one thing to make clear is like, look, if you're in the leadership position, you're like, look, at the end of the day, I need to make the decision. But I want to get all your feedback to better inform the decision we have to take. So that their expectation is not.

Martin (34:02)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (34:05)
that you're gonna do everything they say. It's not like we're not working here by consensus per se. And sometimes people also in personal relationships, sometimes we're yelling not because we need to be right, but because we just wanna be heard in the personal relationship. And sometimes in the workspace, it's not necessarily that they have to go my direction. They don't have to take the same strategy that I think, but can they hear me out so that they can take into consideration so that I want this company to do well and I have concerns over the sales strategy.

I might be wrong, I might be right, but will they at least hear me out? And if they hear you out, then so maybe as a leader, like, listen, I'm hearing what you're saying. What I'm hearing you say is, da, da, da. And they're like, yes, that's what I'm saying. Great, I'm taking that in count. I still think we're going to go this route. Okay. Because you're heard. Now, of course, sometimes if you've been heard 30 times and they never do what you say, well, that's the track record in the history. And then maybe you just no longer, you're like, this is just, I'm just getting...

Martin (34:51)
At least you feel heard, yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (35:04)
lip talk. I'm just getting, maybe it's not the place for me because maybe in my opinion, it doesn't really resonate with the rest of the teams. I'm not sure, but that's what comes up for me is like there is a, yes, on basic level, staying in the intention helps to the space for certain conversations to happen, right? But there's also the thing of like over time, like as a leader, are you taking constructive criticism and are you able to sit in that discomfort, right? Hey, Martin.

Martin (35:05)
Mm-hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (35:32)
We've been working together for a year and I appreciate that we have our yearly check-ins, but I would really appreciate an honest check-in from you and I'm gonna take it to heart and at the end of this conversation, I'm gonna take away three things from you that I'm gonna work on for next year and we'll touch base in a year and I'll see if I've improved on those three points. Can you please give me coaching? And then, or you don't say a year, you say three months, a quarter. And then in a quarter, you check in and you say, we met.

Martin (35:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (36:01)
And we record in order, so I have it here, and what you said, or maybe not, but I have it here, and what you said was boom, boom, boom. And I've been trying to do that. How do you feel I've been doing?

That trust and that relationship from that conversation would grow, Because A, they're being heard and B, they see what you're taking what they're saying into action. And so think this whole talk of vulnerability and sometimes you do want to prime your group as a leader to be vulnerable first. But it's one thing for me as a leader to be vulnerable versus other people because if their jobs are at stake, because maybe they'll be vulnerable and they say something that makes me uncomfortable and then they're thinking, life.

fire them or will I not give them that promotion or will I not listen to them. There's that power dynamic and we have to diffuse that through both creating the space but also the track record of where the conversations are having or the actions you're taking.

Martin (36:56)
in in all the you mentioned something there about like time to trust basically it takes time in order for people to to trust you and I feel like you have an interesting ⁓ dynamic where you're inviting people to have conversations that are real and I guess how and it's not as though you've got you know in in the work

environment, you have a lot of opportunities to build trust with people, small micro moments where you can create that trust. Whereas you're sort of like being dropped in and like a SWAT team and like, okay, cool, build trust in like five minutes. And now we're going to talk about the deepest things ever. I'd be curious to hear, like I'm in the same way that there's lots of time at the workplace to build trust, but also building trust faster and more authentically is probably a super powerful tool. What

What have you seen from your vantage point that an HR person could take away or a people person could take away from your experience?

Topaz (he/him) (38:00)
I find it's a great question.

And the one thing that's coming up for me now from that is, like maybe there is a...

I suspect there's a connection between one's ability to sit in discomfort and the ability in creating trust. So what I mean by that is let's say you're in conversation with your brother or a member at work or your partner and they tell you something that ⁓ makes you feel really uncomfortable because it's a ⁓ projection or it's a representation of how your relationship

or how your behavior affects their relationship. I feel like every time I share with you, you shut me down and it really doesn't create a safe space for me because I don't feel like you're really listening to me. And you're like, you have to take that on. Now you can either get defensive and respond and try to solve it or do that. Or you could sit in that and just really take it in and sit in that discomfort. And by taking it in, sitting in that discomfort, and even maybe playing it back, what I'm hearing you say is this and that.

Martin (38:44)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (39:10)
Interesting and when I hear and I play it back and I hear what you say that makes me feel like okay that maybe I failed and that makes me feel uncomfortable I'm even feeling a little bit angry in my chest, but And you kind of sit in the discomfort. I Think that leads to a more space of trust because they're like, they're actually not spending all the energy deflecting or pushing back Right or attacking back, but actually they're spending the energy in like processing this and taking it on they're listening and seeing if they can make constructive

Martin (39:36)
They're listening.

Topaz (he/him) (39:40)
Now of course, you always have the people who use that to their advantage and ⁓ might just take it and use it to their thing and they actually never do anything. But they have great language control and they have great ability to like throw it back at you and make you feel good. actually at the end of the day, you see that they don't take action. And that is something, yeah. And that is something where time is. Like I think time is required for that. Right, to see like, because you can speak, you can use these terms and then,

Martin (39:58)
Yeah, it's the actions speak louder than words kind of scenario.

Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (40:09)
these tools in an excellent way to play it back and ask quality questions. But at the end of the day, if you're not going to put that into action and you feel like your colleague is not, then trust does start to deteriorate. And it deteriorates to a point that you don't even want to engage with them because you don't trust the space between.

Martin (40:30)
Yeah, no, that's, it's interesting. It reminds me of, um, sort of a, not a challenge, but something that comes up from leading the community in the sense that there's this sometimes because of the community folks reach out and say, it would be amazing if you could keep your eyes out open for me in terms of like opportunities, because you're so well connected to all these HR folks and whatnot. And my

Topaz (he/him) (40:40)
Mmm.

Right.

Martin (40:58)
basis like the, I dropped out of high school and like there's a everything, all the success I've seen in my life comes from this fact that like I was always working super hard and I would always like a bit of a people pleaser, like how can I go above and beyond for everyone? So when somebody, all my opportunities came from saying yes to something. And so

Still, that's kind of like you do that for 15, 20 years, that becomes a habit. So it becomes really difficult to say no to people. And I realized at some point that that wasn't really serving me in the way that I wanted it to, because I would say yes to people, right? And sort of like actions versus what you say. like the intention is there. Like I want to help everybody that I bump into. But being honest with myself and just saying like, I can't, like I can't.

keep my like, can't keep my eyes open because I've had this conversation four or five times this week and you know, stacked up over so many things, I'm not going to deliver. So I could say yes to that. But the outcome is going to be no. And the thing that I've found really powerful is actually like is immediately when they asked me, I'm like, I can't do that. But this is what I can do. And so what I've what I've started doing is like, if you want,

Topaz (he/him) (42:01)
Yeah.

Martin (42:20)
Like absolutely send me a note with like the three or four people you'd like an introduction to, or the three or four companies you'd like an introduction to. And I will go out of my way to make those introductions that that that's something I can tactically do versus like this completely open-ended ask of like, keep your eyes open. Right. And then remember that so-and-so is looking for this and so-and-so is looking for that kind of deal. And I find.

Topaz (he/him) (42:37)
Right.

Right.

Martin (42:45)
It's been really uncomfortable for me and that seems to be like a theme for our conversation and there's a lot of power there. But it was, it's still uncomfortable for me to say that, but it, because it's yeah, it's yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (42:49)
You

Tully.

So yeah, I get that. I get that for sure. And one substitution that worked for me was when someone told me when you say no to something, it's saying yes to something else. So you saying no, can't open-endedly introduce you all these things is you saying yes to focusing your energies on the community that you're building and the value of the total community and everything you could, because you're putting your time there for all 6,000 plus members.

Martin (43:10)
Hmm. Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (43:27)
And the value to the totality versus 10 % of them, which will then overwhelm all of your time. But you might get them, you're saying no to the 10 % or 5 % because you're saying yes to the 100%. You're saying yes to something else. And then when you realize it's a yes to something else, it's not like a yes, no, it's a yes to here or a yes to that. Which is the greater value of my time? It's a yes to this.

Martin (43:42)
Yeah, optimizing impact basically,

Topaz (he/him) (43:55)
And then I think what I find interesting is that when I find that when people are very clear with their boundaries for me, then it's like in some sense I trust them more because I know what they say no to, they say no to, and what they say yes to, they'll do.

you know, versus saying yes and it never happens. Then you're like, wait, what's, and I just think, mm-hmm.

Martin (44:15)
That's a reputation.

Yeah, that your reputations right there. We've we've we've double clicked on a lot here and we've gotten a good sense of your journey from, you know, busing tables to to to where you are now. ⁓ What is happening right now for you? Like what what are you excited about the work that you're doing right now? Because you've done so much already, which is incredible, but.

Topaz (he/him) (44:41)
Interesting

Yeah, well, mean, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. I mean, one thing I'll tell you this is I feel like, I feel like that what social media has done to our mental health and our sense of wellbeing is a drop in the ocean of the tsunami that's coming with AI.

Martin (45:08)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (45:10)
I think AI, I think for me and our team at The Skin Deep, we've been building this experience at Iron Studio, exploring what does it mean, an emotional experience of being alive, what does it mean, what does it mean, how do we connect with one another, how do we communicate, how do we explore, how do identify ourselves, our sense of self, you've been creating products and experiences for that. And kind of in lieu of the background of all the social media, right, that's been happening and then changes. But now with AI here, I feel like the last 12 years was literally just a practice. It was...

Martin (45:39)
Interesting.

Topaz (he/him) (45:40)
It was like, you know, that was a stream and now comes a flood. And if the flood came 12 years ago, I would have got drowned. But now, as a business person, I've built, like, I've gone through a process of going from artist to business person to understanding all the metrics in my company and the value of the Excel sheet and the profit and loss, like all the numbers and how to better work with the team and ⁓ manage the team.

Martin (45:45)
Okay.

Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (46:08)
and find my own position in the team. So then also the communicating, like improve their, so like I've had these 12 years of the journey I've been in and now feel like, my God, now comes this gigantic.

technology that's going affect the way we relate to each other and to ourselves. And we have to meet the moment with the skin deep. And how are we going to meet the moment? And we have to meet the moment because if we make a two millimeter shift now, that trajectory in 50 years will be a mile apart. And that's how I felt 12 years ago.

Martin (46:28)
Hmm.

interesting.

Yeah, interesting.

Topaz (he/him) (46:48)
But now there's just this much more coming our way. mean, social media and what it did to us is nothing compared with what AI is gonna do to us. And it's not good or bad. That's ⁓ not a good question. Good or bad is like, that's a waste of energy because it's here. It's here, it's changing. How do we conscientiously apply ourselves utilizing this tool to what end?

Martin (46:58)
No, no, you're not. This isn't. This isn't a doom. It's a what's the outcome thing.

Topaz (he/him) (47:18)
For what quality of life? Fundamentally, what does that mean? That means like, what is the question we're asking ourselves? Because the question shapes the answer. And all of us are so focused on answers that we don't realize all the powers in the question. So you have two daughters, I have two children, a boy and a girl. And we know, here's an example. It's bedtime and you go, girls, do you wanna go to sleep now? Yes, do you wanna go to sleep? Yes or no?

Martin (47:47)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (47:48)
No.

But if you change the question and you say, you want to sleep on the bed or the couch? Not going to sleep? That's not a possible answer because you changed the question. So we can shape the questions we ask ourselves now that then shape the possibilities. But we're so focused on other people's questions that we're answering it when that's not where the power is at, the power is in the question. ⁓ And so I'm just...

really aware of that and I'm really aware of we have a platform now, Skindee, that we built over 12 years that's full of integrity. We're not huge because we didn't go for the salacious edits and we didn't go for the salacious, but we have this community that will fly across the country or halfway across the globe to be in a production to share a bit of themselves on their own dime. We have people who come to us to work with their brands and it's all incumbent. We built this brand of integrity and so...

Martin (48:36)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (48:46)
and has a beautiful community, which I want to talk to you about how to further build that, but then how do we then apply our community and our ethos and questions, the ability to create really good questions to the current world that we're in that's coming?

Martin (49:02)
Yeah. I like that you said there's this is like, how do you meet the moment? Because I feel like that's truly the case. The other thing that I feel like is to your point, you've been if you've been practicing for 12 years, and now there is this moment. And I believe that to be the case from everything that I'm seeing and like everything you're saying resonates. The part that's interesting to me is from

from the like, I get tinges of like, what are we going to do? But from my perspective, I'm like, you're primed, like the skin deep and what you're doing and all the work you've been doing is only going to get that much more important because with social media, like I've gone down like, two hour tick tock holes and then walk away from it thinking what the fuck's wrong with me? What? What am I doing with my life? Now I just watched like, I've got

I've got 400 facts I'm never going to remember. ⁓ huh. And, and the one thing that I, I I'm craving is just the human interaction that you're curating and you're designing. And, I've seen it within, within our community as well. Like, like you can, you can point to the pandemic as potentially a catalyst for this because we all got tucked away for four or five years.

Topaz (he/him) (50:12)
Yeah.

Martin (50:26)
And now people are slowly coming back out. And I remember going to events. I'm sure you remember going to events after the pandemic where it's like, this is my first event since. it's been like, you've been to five or six events, right? But it's their first, you know, like, holy shit. Like it's not everybody is crawled out of their cave of protection and safety and at the same time and pace, but B but there's also this digital cave that we're trapped in as well.

Topaz (he/him) (50:47)
Right.

Martin (50:55)
And because of AI, and I think I'm really, I'm just kind of like framing this a bit more for the listeners, but like, because of AI, the content is going to become that much more captivating the, the in, in, in, good ways and bad ways, right? There's equal amounts of both, hopefully more of the good than the bad. And I find like I'm an optimist and my faith in humanity is still there.

Topaz (he/him) (50:55)
Yeah.

yeah.

Martin (51:22)
And so good will prevail in the sense that like, yeah, you've got AI and people will use it for good and bad. I'm going on here, but I guess my, my question is what is the opportunity that you see like beyond what you're, what, what are you excited about in, the platform you've already built and what you can bring to the table for people craving this like in-person experience or these more authentic connections.

Topaz (he/him) (51:48)
Wow, yeah, I'm super excited because...

which way I'm deciding which way to go first. I'll go first. I'm super excited because we have some incredible

people that we've met along the way that are very much aligned with the skin deep and what our offering and our ethos is. And now we can offer their products, not just our own. So we can almost become like a publishing house, you know, because we have this e-commerce funnel, we have a community, we have an audience. ⁓ If we can, you know, they have these incredible products that I can't make.

Martin (52:20)
Yeah.

Right.

Topaz (he/him) (52:36)
You know, my team can't make, why? Because we haven't lived the life experience that they have. And yet their life experience creates this product, experience that can really take people on this journey. Wow, that's exciting. And because the Skindeep has always been a product that, the Skindeep creates experiences in the shape of products or physical experiences, but like a product is an experience just like a retreat is an experience, just like a digital meetup is an experience. But it creates these experiences that can...

Martin (52:58)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (53:04)
meet the human experience everywhere on the human life cycle. So we have dating card games, right? So you play dating when you're dating. And then you go from hello to I love you and then you start getting the couples deck. You get the couples deck and then you're and then like you're wanting to have kids. We should make like, do we, should we have children again? Should we have children? Should we become parents? Deck, right? To then making a product for like you have kids, great. Now can play the kids deck or wait before that they're three years old. Here's a product to play for story time with your kids.

Martin (53:10)
Right.

Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (53:35)
Right? To then like you're getting older, long-term couples, maybe divorce. Maybe we should do like a, you know, what are the different points on the life cycle of a human being? And can we create really conscientious experiences, products for them at each point along the way? A grieving deck or a grieving experience or a storytelling experience. So that's what I'm excited about. And like, that's not gonna come from me. It's not gonna come from just our team members. It's gonna come from the people we know that we.

Martin (53:53)
Mmmmm

Topaz (he/him) (54:03)
align with and like can co-create with. Right. And if we are really good at just telling the narrative of that story and offering that as a product with customer service, then boom, like that's awesome. And so I'm really excited about that opportunity. And what I'm really excited about AI is that I think the superpower of AI is not knowledge and organization of information. It's time. AI superpower is time. Like

Martin (54:11)
Mm-hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (54:32)
What used to take us three days or two hours can take us 15 minutes. You want to research a bunch of stuff, get a mastery degree in, I don't know, modern French philosophy and spin that into a product or a blog post or what, like time. So now we have more time. ⁓ great. What are you doing with that time? You're going two hours on TikTok? Are you going go to, what are you going are you going to watch all the Netflix series? Like, that's cool, but.

Martin (54:54)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (55:01)
But are you going to sit by the fire with your kids? you going to go clean up the beach with your community? What are you going to do with your time? Are you going to participate in what you see going around the world? I find it really interesting because on one level, we have AI, which superpower is time, so we'll have more time. However, the entertainment tools, which I include social media in, are becoming that much more powerful as numbing agents.

Martin (55:21)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (55:32)
So as those become, this is something I've been thinking about for years. I call it interactive media 2.0, but I mean, soon you'll be able to play a video game or a blend of a video game meets a TV show that is custom made to you. And so that you and I won't talk about what happened on Game of Thrones. We'll say, what happened to you in the world of Game of Thrones? And let me tell you what happened to me in the world of Game Thrones. We created our own storylines. Let's share about that. But these...

numbing agents, i.e. content media, will become so powerful and so incredibly good and so entertaining that we can spend a lot of time in there. And AI will help us so that we can get rid of, do whatever we need to do to have more time. So what are you doing with your time? Where are you putting your energy? Fundamentally, what does that mean? It means what's the question you're asking yourself?

Martin (56:20)
Yeah.

And it's, funny because there's also a whole sub category of people that aren't even asking themselves these questions in the first place, right? Where it's like your community, the, the, audience that maybe some people are just like being tapped on the shoulder and, they're waking up like in the midst of if you're your interaction with them or people have, are just like bought in already. But then there's this whole other category of folks that just haven't asked themselves these hard questions, haven't asked themselves.

these interesting questions. That's now that, that that's very, the AI haven't thought of it in in that way, like the giving back more time. And then what do you do at that time, because it feels like we fill it, right? We fill the Parkinson's law or whatever. Like, if you say something's gonna take an hour, it's gonna take you an hour, even if you could have got it done in 15 minutes, kind of deal, right?

Topaz (he/him) (57:17)
Right,

right, right, yeah. So if you had the same amount of time, you could take it that much deeper and that much farther because you have this incredible tool. ⁓ That's where I'm excited and where I'm at now and I think it puts the impetus on us asking better questions of ourselves, but it's something that I found.

Martin (57:29)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (57:43)
after publishing the book, 12 Questions for Love last year and doing all the podcasts is that, yeah, makes sense, that sounds right, but we don't, we're not taught that. We're not taught how to ask better questions. We're not even posed with the dilemma of asking better questions. We're posed about finding the answers. Right? And the next book is titled The Question is the Answer, because that's what I believe. I believe that the answer is the question. The question is the answer. Our focus should be the question.

Martin (58:00)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (58:13)
So for instance, every year when we have our years up, we go from April to March, or end of February to March. March is our strategic time. that's when we're really, okay. And our focus is not like on our mission statement. The focus for most of the time is what's the question we're asking ourselves this year? What's the question? And we like double down on that. And we spend time like, is this the best question? Is this the best question? What's the best question that we can construct right now?

And then we finally go, that's the question we want to answer. Okay, now let's go answer it. And usually it's so much easier because you've spent so much time really focusing on the question. And I think if you just look at someone's life really simply, they go, should I quit this job? That's okay, everyone can relate to that. I keep it this job, should I quit the job? Or another one is, ⁓ should I marry this person or should I dump him? Like, what do we do?

When people call me with that dilemma, I'm always like, okay, let's stop. Let's spend time on the question. Like what if instead the question to like, should I quit this job is what can I do for the next six months that challenges me, that makes me feel inspired and vital albeit uncomfortable such that I can be that much better of a marketer for whatever company I work at.

Martin (59:18)
Hmm.

Topaz (he/him) (59:39)
or such that I can ⁓ learn a lot and support the business I currently work at or whatever, or my company. You come up with 30 questions, you circle the one that most inspires you, and then if that's the question, what can I do for the next six months that inspires me, maybe feel challenges that can contribute to my company as a kick-ass marketing specialist or HR specialist, then it's like, okay, clear. If that's the question, should I quit my job or not?

Absolutely quit my job and go to or no stay in the job, but chain make these changes right, so Oftentimes when we're asking when we find ourselves banging our head against the wall like not quite sure it's because we're not asking a good enough question

Martin (1:00:13)
Hmm.

Yeah. So yeah, no, my buddy, a good friend of mine is going through this right now. I'm probably going to send him a few text messages after this just to be like, actually you need to come up with some better questions.

Topaz (he/him) (1:00:35)
Well, yeah, there's a, just tell them, there's three fields to a question, good question. Time frame, how it makes you feel, how it affects others. Just come up with 30 of those, just fill in different time frames. Three years, three months, five months, next chapter, inspired, safe, comfortable, uncomfortable, vital, learning, expansive, how it affects my family, my community, my work, my career path. And then come up 30, 50 of these.

Martin (1:00:45)
Okay.

Topaz (he/him) (1:01:05)
And then you look at the one, you're like, that's the one I wanna answer right now. That one looks awesome. That one is the one that gives me energy. That one seems like a great one, worthwhile. That's a question worth answering. Because oftentimes we're answering questions that society gave us, that our family gave us, that our parents gave us, that our friend group gave us, that our company gave us. And sometimes that's not the question worthwhile answering.

Martin (1:01:32)
This is a bit more of a, like a business oriented question for yourself, but I'm just curious because we've kind of pulled at the, we we've pulled at the thread on how, what you're doing ties into the workplace and whatnot. And because your work is directly involved with the human experience. ⁓ I guess just from, for going forward, are you focused more on sort of

you know, forgive it, forgive the like, term but like B2C or B2B. there's because it, you know, you have this one to many approach with the B2B side, but what you do is at the core of the human experience. So it feels like just a direct relationship with the individuals more powerful than say, like a relationship with a company, so to speak.

Topaz (he/him) (1:02:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're mostly B2C, but we're, we have right now three products that work in the workspace and we haven't pushed them in years because frankly, the feedback we've gotten is so good that they're like, you're leaving money on the table. Like I'm having the best meetings I've ever had and it costs 30 bucks. You know, like this should cost at least a thousand or this should be a workshop. should like 30 bucks and we're having.

Martin (1:02:26)
Hmm.

You

Topaz (he/him) (1:02:50)
And we're using this every week or every two weeks, and it's the co-workers deck or team building deck. And so we're like, leaving so much money on the table. Like, this is amazing. This is where you should put everything. And so we're actually launching later this year, The End at Work. And really, it's about launching it, but it's really about finding partners that have built the trust over time with their community so that we can offer real value. You know, it's like, there's enough noise out there.

There's enough noise and one of our things is let's not add noise, that's our value. So if we don't have anything that really adds value in a new way, because if you can get somewhere else and we're making a copy of something else, let's not add, that's noise. We're just competing with more, like no. Where's the value here? Is there something, is there an offer here? Yes. Then can we find partners that have the same ethos, that have the trust, that are champions in their own field that we can use? Because then we're going to offer this value that much faster.

Martin (1:03:47)
Yeah. ⁓

Topaz (he/him) (1:03:48)
and that much

better, right? And then it's done. So that's what Anth, who you spoke to, your partner, like, is looking for. think that's what led us to you and your community, but that's where we're at. You know, we're definitely, we definitely know that that's a, and like, let's be honest. mean, A, we spend most of our time at work, even if it's remote or at the office, that's work. Two, a lot of us, unfortunately, feel that while our life may be

Martin (1:03:58)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (1:04:15)
You might be impotent in some ways in your life, whether it's your relationship or your ability to get things done around the house. Who knows what? When you go to work, shit can happen at work. I can make things happen at work. I feel empowered at work. I know I have that problem. I'm almost a workaholic. Why? Because trying to get my five-year-old or two-year-old to do what I want them to do, good luck. But go to work and talk to adults and get things done and feel like I'm moving the needle? That's at work.

Martin (1:04:37)
you

Topaz (he/him) (1:04:44)
So, know, but then I go into my relationship with my wife and family and friends and, you know, that's a lot more fallible. That is not as efficient, you know, it's hard to move the needle there and it's a lot more uncomfortable. ⁓ And so like, in some sense, a lot of us do find comfort in empowerment and kind of identity in work. So, and we spend a lot of our time at work and organizations, whether they're or for business or whatnot, they move needles in communities. They move needles.

in social engagements in the world. So how do we make those spaces that much more human? Because, yeah, and then.

Martin (1:05:26)
You get a lot more done when everybody is on the same page, ⁓ just in general.

Topaz (he/him) (1:05:37)
Yeah, they're the same page in terms of ethos, but not necessarily the same page in terms of vision and understanding, right? Because the AI is all on the same page. mean, every node of an AI is if one node learns something, the whole system learns it, right? Like it's ubiquitously the same. So the AI is basically this all-knowing system, whichever model, but in theory, it has one engagement, it learns something, and then it informs all the other nodes about that system.

So it all learns at the same rate, at the same moment, right? We humans are totally the opposite, right? We don't do that, right? Just because you learn something does not mean I'm gonna learn it. You gotta explain it to me. Then when you explain to me, use different words, I have different understanding, da da da. And so there is invariably like misunderstandings and conflict or whatnot. But that is actually our advantage. And in the workplace, the fact that we have to acknowledge these different misunderstandings,

Martin (1:06:12)
Yeah. ⁓

Topaz (he/him) (1:06:37)
and in these like moments of conflict because there's actually a golden nugget there. And that golden nugget is something that we humans can find if we spend the time there and send the discomfort and can communicate to find that versus the AI that basically is growing at the same rate in the same way. It will not find those opportunities because it's all the same and we're different. And it's in our differences that we can find the greatest opportunities.

Martin (1:06:50)
Hmm.

⁓ no.

Topaz (he/him) (1:07:04)
That's what I think. Does that sound like bullshit or what do you really think when you hear that?

Martin (1:07:11)
No, no, it, it makes sense. I think I don't, I don't disagree with it. think it sounds it's not bullshit, but it's definitely easier said than done. And I'm sure you've put the time and effort into the work, right? I think and that's what it feels like you're doing is you're you're you're you're the cartographer for how to get to being human faster and

Topaz (he/him) (1:07:29)
Yeah.

Right.

Martin (1:07:40)
And that's kind of that that's the exciting part. So. ⁓

Topaz (he/him) (1:07:44)
I like that

the cartographer for how to be that is true when we do our yeah

Martin (1:07:49)
I mean, you've

seen it. You've created your that's the design that you're building, right? That's ⁓ and most most people don't take like it takes time and effort. Whereas to your point about AI, it's just like lickety split and you put in information and then across the board, you know, especially with the advance advancements going on, like chat, GPT doesn't get what I mean every time and comes up with some weird ass shit sometimes. But

Topaz (he/him) (1:07:55)
Yep, definitely, definitely.

Martin (1:08:18)
for the most part, we can all tell that it's crazy impressive right now. And if this is what it is now five, 10 years from now, it's going to be bananas, right? So, no, that, that doesn't, that doesn't come across as, as bullshit. think the, the interesting part and kind of why I said, or feel like you said meeting the moment, and this is more your moment than, than ever before is because of AI. This is.

Topaz (he/him) (1:08:23)
Mm-hmm.

Martin (1:08:47)
It is both easier than ever to, kind of create these human experiences and connections, but it's also going to be harder than ever as well at the same, like both can be true at the same time. And it depends on a person's algorithm, I suppose, or a person's intentions, ⁓ to whether or not they want to go down the four hour tick tock hole, or they intentionally want to like have those human connections. guess the, thing that's in.

We can wrap up here in a little bit, but really enjoyed this and hope to have when, you know, more conversations with you and definitely we'll stay in touch. But there is this, the part that I find interesting in when, folks are kind of straddling between business and you started off as an artist. I think you know where I'm going with this question. You start off as an artist.

Topaz (he/him) (1:09:37)
Yeah.

Martin (1:09:41)
But you also recognize the need to have a business mindset and act as a founder, CEO, business owner. But when you start as an artist, you do so very intentionally and purposely. And from the sounds of your story, it's because you just understood yourself, right? You had a ton of self-awareness. This isn't working for me and I need to dive into the actual human experience of things and whatnot.

How do you balance that now? Like, and how do you make sure that you're not kind of, you're not straying from, from the, the thing that brought you here in the first place.

Topaz (he/him) (1:10:21)
You mean how did know I'm not straying from like the artistry or like the value that set me up for this journey?

Martin (1:10:26)
Yeah,

the doing what you love.

Topaz (he/him) (1:10:34)
I I haven't made a movie in years. I miss the artistry of that, but I get a lot of hits, emotional hits off of those soul connections of watching all these people do the end. I'm, I don't know, I think that's part of my personality. I think I got it from my mom. Like, stubborn integrity of value, like, it's not about the,

It's not about the money, it's not about the fame, it's about the world I'm creating for my daughter. Say hello, you wanna say hello? si? Se llama Martin. wanna say hello? He can't see you, bucho. You just coughed on Martin. So, Mi amor. I, look, ⁓ I have, si? I had to finish my love. Si? Gracias, te amo.

Martin (1:11:12)
Hello.

Haha

So good.

Topaz (he/him) (1:11:32)
No, no, you can leave the backpack here. gracias. Sí, gracias.

Martin (1:11:38)
That's a two year old.

Topaz (he/him) (1:11:40)
It's my two year old daughter who owns me, dude. I wanna get a shirt that says She My Pimp, which would not be appropriate, but she owns me, dude. Say hello, dilo hola. Si. ⁓ Look, how do I walk the line? I haven't sold out yet, and I don't plan to, because then I'll lose everything. And that makes me think of Jay-Z's song, I think it's 99 Problems, is like all I have is my word and my balls.

Martin (1:11:48)
Yeah. Hello.

Topaz (he/him) (1:12:08)
back, I just feel like.

I got that from my parents. I got that from my parents in integrity and I also realize.

I mean, I'm 49. It's not like I'm young. I've seen a lot. I have some very successful friends. ⁓

Martin (1:12:26)
I thought we

were in on the same. I was, I'm like, just two, two 40 year olds just chatting.

Topaz (he/him) (1:12:32)
Yeah. So I don't know. I'm not just who I am. I just like I pride myself on its values. It's like I'm going to die anyway. Oh, you know what it is is that I see my life from the end. Like I'm already dead kind of. And I'm just making my choices from the deathbed. So it's like if I'm on my deathbed and you're like, OK, Topaz, do you want to, you know, do you want to get a million views for making this piece of noise or do you want to like get 200 views?

but you're having value, what would your choice be on your deathbed? You're just like, I want value. How do you want to treat your person that is so valuable to your company, but they're basically getting zombied out and they're not getting inspired by working for you anymore, or you're gonna keep them and manipulate them in a way to keep them or whatever. On your deathbed, what would you choose? You're like, let them go, and I'll find someone else who'll be inspired. Life is short. What is the thing I want to leave behind? ⁓

Martin (1:13:07)
Yeah.

Topaz (he/him) (1:13:31)
So I make my choices kind of from that perspective, not all the time. Sometimes I wish I made more decisions from there, i.e. you're single and you see that beautiful woman in the subway and you're just like, really wanna say hello, but you're too shy or whatever. You know what I'm saying? But when comes to business, like, what's the long-term integrity here? What's the long-term integrity here? There's so much noise out there. I don't need to contribute to that. We're not gonna do that.

Martin (1:13:49)
Yay.

Topaz (he/him) (1:14:00)
Fortunately, everyone on our team is kind of so attracted to that and we have a really high retention rate at the Skin Deep because of that. I guess that's what it is. It's A, my parents and B, I look at things from the end. I choices from the end.

Martin (1:14:17)
Amazing.

Well, I mean, it shows from, from the content that you've put out the inspiring work that you've been doing. And no, it's, it's, it's, it's genuinely inspiring to hear that. Cause there's so many life's life's about trade-offs, right? And you're constantly making them. You can never have it all. And so which version of all do you want? No, thank you. Thank you so much for, for today. Topaz.

Topaz (he/him) (1:14:43)
Mmm.

Martin (1:14:46)
appreciate the conversation. Any final thoughts or places for the listeners that have stuck it out this long? Thank you so much. how can they get in touch with you? Should they get in touch with you? Where should they find you?

Topaz (he/him) (1:14:47)
⁓ Pardon.

Theskindeep.com is where we do all our work and our content and the socials, The Skin Deep. have ⁓ topazadeesus.com from my own site. And I have a podcast called Guts, Guts podcast. But yes, theskindeep.com or just direct message us there and that's the best way. Martin, thank you for having us. Thank you for having me and my team and appreciate it.

Martin (1:15:24)
No,

this was great. Thank you.